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Messages - RW1

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19
The Common Room / Missing GRO Death - 1945
« on: Monday 15 January 24 11:10 GMT (UK)  »
Hi

I have found a death entry on freebmd.org.uk -
Charles W Butler; March 1945; (age) 56; Ilford; 4a; 523

But I can't find it on GRO (there are 4 other entries for 4a, 523, same period, which I can find).

I did a "Missing entry in the death index" report, which came back from GRO -
"Investigated – No amendment required" and "Indexed data is correct."

I tried to contact GRO, but halfway through the contact form it outlined in RED with the message "THERE IS A PROBLEM" - it kept doing this, even after disconnecting from the internet and starting again.

So, I resent the missing report - this time putting a fuller message in the free text.  GRO came back again, this time with -
"Investigated – No amendment required" and "Indexed data not available."

Can anyone else find this, please?

Many thanks.



20
The Common Room / Re: Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Sunday 31 December 23 17:42 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Mabel Bagshawe on Sunday 31 December 23 17:08 GMT (UK)
Nope - he's not showing on Ancestry. No Charles Butlers of the right sort of age in West Ham!
Charles Butler
Birth year: 1888
Address: West Ham Mental Hospital, Goodmayes, Ilford, Goodmayes
Borough / district: Ilford M.B.
County: Essex

21
The Common Room / Re: Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Sunday 31 December 23 16:53 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Mabel Bagshawe on Sunday 31 December 23 16:32 GMT (UK)
Quote from: RW1 on Sunday 31 December 23 16:22 GMT (UK)

There's a Charles Butler (Eleanor Greene's missing son) in the West Ham Mental Hospital in 1939, which would fit with the location.


How is he indexed? I can find the hospital but no Charles

I searched on findmypast. I can't see the actual record, but it's one of the results for Charles Butler, born 1888, living in West Ham.

22
The Common Room / Re: Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Sunday 31 December 23 16:44 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Milliepede on Sunday 31 December 23 16:30 GMT (UK)
I was just trying to think of some evidence that would rule Mrs O'H in or out. 

The death record in 1939 lady was 82. 

Does it give her age when she married in 1918?  She would have been elderly for a first marriage.

She gave her age as 55; Daniel was 52.

For info - the witnesses were P Beasley and Mary Santry.

23
The Common Room / Re: Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Sunday 31 December 23 16:39 GMT (UK)  »
Eleanor Frances O'Hanrahan, age given as 82 and wife of Daniel Patrick O'Hanrahan, retired boot maker, died on 12 August 1939 at 27 Inniskilling Road; informant was the widower.

24
The Common Room / Re: Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Sunday 31 December 23 16:22 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Milliepede on Sunday 31 December 23 16:12 GMT (UK)
That fits then with retired shoemaker.
Hello Milliepede. What are you thinking? Could Mrs O'Hanrahan be the missing Eleanor Greene? Despite all the facts that don't fit?

There's a Charles Butler (Eleanor Greene's missing son) in the West Ham Mental Hospital in 1939, which would fit with the location.

The phrase "clutching at straws" comes to mind!

25
The Common Room / Re: Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Sunday 31 December 23 16:08 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Milliepede on Sunday 31 December 23 15:58 GMT (UK)
I think Daniel is widowed before 1939 - do you have his occupation to cross check please? 

If we could find a death for his wife ** 1921-1939 it might help with who she was. 

** Eleanor F O'Hanrahan Sep 1939 age 82 W Ham
At their marriage in 1918, he was a boot maker.

26
The Common Room / Re: Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Sunday 31 December 23 11:44 GMT (UK)  »
UPDATE
I did get the birth certificate of Eleanor's son, Charles Butler: he was born on 13 December 1888 at 38 Warrender Road, Islington; father: BLANK; mother: Eleanor Frances Butler, formerly Greene, of Independent Means; informant: E F Butler, Mother, of 38 Warrender Road, Islington.  I can't find someone with this birthdate, for example, on the 1939 Register?

I can find no obvious link between Eleanor and the occupants of 38 Warrender Road, who are listed on the 1881 and 1891 Censuses?

FURTHER UPDATE!
Captain George Butler married his "good friend's" (Charles Greene's) daughter (Eleanor) in 1881.  However, Captain Butler is shown on the 1881 Census with his WIFE (Harriett Ann, née Cozens) and daughter at 367 Victoria Park Road, Hackney.

When he died on 26 March 1884, it was his WIDOW, Harriett Ann Butler of 367 Victoria Park Road, who applied for Administration, not his "WIDOW" (as mentioned in the newspaper articles reporting on his death), Eleanor Frances Butler.

So, Captain Butler married Eleanor bigamously.  Surely his good friend, Eleanor's father, must have known that he was already married, with children?

FURTHER UPDATE AGAIN
There is a marriage on 3 October 1918 between Eleanor Frances Butler (spinster) and Daniel Patrick O'Hanrahan.  However, she gives her father's details as "John Butler (deceased), cabinet maker".

When this couple appear on the 1921 Census at 27 Inniskilling Road, West Ham, her birthplace is given as "Berkshire Windsor", ie not that of Eleanor Frances Greene - St Pancras.

BUT the new Mrs O'Hanrahan doesn't seem to have existed as Eleanor Frances Butler, with a birthplace of Windsor around c.1863, or appear on any Census with a father, called John?

I know Eleanor Frances Greene-Butler's tendency was to be very generous with the years she knocked off her age (8 years at the 1911 Census); and she could quite possibly have maintained only a 2-3 year difference between her and Daniel for appearances sake, but with all the other information not matching up, I am struggling to think Mrs O'Hanrahan is the right Eleanor Greene.

If I could find something that shows Mrs O'Hanrahan was a separate person, that would be great - but obviously would leave me still with the missing Eleanor Frances Greene-Butler!

Perhaps in all this, I've missed something fairly obvious?

27
The Common Room / Re: Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Monday 11 December 23 10:31 GMT (UK)  »
There is a biography of Charles Greene in The Early History of the 17th (North) Middlesex Volunteer Rifles: (formerly the 29th), 1859 to 1889.

This is available here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Early_History_of_the_17th_North_Midd.html?id=lydFAAAAYAAJ&redir_esc=y

Captain Butler appears to have taken over from Charles Greene as Quarter Master in 1878, and Charles Greene is described as Captain Butler's "old friend".  This publication also includes photographs of both men!  Captain Butler appears to have been of a similar age to Charles Greene and considerably older than Eleanor Frances Greene - Charles's daughter, whom Captain Butler married in 1881.

Just as a footnote (and while making no judgement on the man as described virtuously in the biography) - this is the same Charles Greene who started an affair with his (probable) first cousin, while still married to his first wife (mother of his five children, including Eleanor Frances).  He had four more children from the affair: the eldest two given up to fostering; the third's fate is unknown; the fourth was kept in a home Charles set-up for mother and son; all this before his first wife was pulled, drowned, from the canal, near where they lived.  A few weeks later Charles married the other woman and had three more children, who all died shortly after birth.  His eldest son married at 18 and had three children, but died at 23 the year before his mother.  After his daughter-in-law's death, Charles took his grandson under his wing, schooled him and remembered him generously in his will.  His granddaughter, however, was sent to an orphanage (aged 7) in Bristol and seems to have severed contact between them.  I await the records from the orphanage to confirm that it was Charles that sent her there and any background information on that.

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