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Messages - RW1

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28
The Common Room / Re: Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Monday 11 December 23 08:29 GMT (UK)  »
I think getting the birth certificate is the only way to go, with an accurate DOB you should find him in 1939 or alternately a death record.

Yes, many thanks for your interest.  I'll post any new find.

29
The Common Room / Re: Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Monday 11 December 23 07:36 GMT (UK)  »
I have the Census information for Eleanor Frances up to and including the 1911 one. I can't find her or her son, Charles, on the 1921 Census or the 1939 Register - although she would be 91 then, if still alive.

I could get Charles's birth certificate and search the 1939 using dob?

If Constance had the middle name Lofting and Eleanor's son was Charles, perhaps the father (if the same) was Charles Lofting?

30
The Common Room / Re: Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Monday 11 December 23 07:27 GMT (UK)  »
Find My Past has the 1921 census, it has a free index.

ADDED
Charles isn't Charles Jr. either, since his father is unknown.

Quite so. It helps distinguish the two, even if not entirely accurate, as we now know. Every other man in this family seems to be called Charles!

31
The Common Room / Re: Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Sunday 10 December 23 16:48 GMT (UK)  »
If you use FreeBMD
Choose marriages put in Butler for the surname and Greene for the spouse the only entry that  comes up is for George Butler to Eleanor Frances Greene. 1881.

You can get a copy of Constance birth certificate for £2.50 (PDF) and see who is named for the father.

Oh my!  I thought this Greene family had given up all its stories and here we go again.  Yes, Constance Lofting (Greene/Butler) was born on 18 December 1885 at 378 York Road, Islington - father: blank - mother: Eleanor Frances Butler, formerly Greene.

The informant was J Thompson of 378 York Road (I don't know who this is but that is the address of Eleanor's half-brother, Ernest Charles Greene).

So Charles Butler Sr was not Constance's father.  And presumably I will find something similar with Charles Jr.

Thank you so much for the newspaper reference - I wouldn't have thought the children's birth certificates were so significant without your suggestion.

32
The Common Room / Re: Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Sunday 10 December 23 14:36 GMT (UK)  »
Interesting. Their daughter, Constance, was born in 1886, so could be a coincidence with the names?

33
The Common Room / Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene (1848 - unknown)
« on: Sunday 10 December 23 12:35 GMT (UK)  »
Hello

I should be very grateful to find out what happened after 1911 to Eleanor Frances Butler, née Greene - baptised on 30 July 1848 (birthdate given as 4 July 1848) at St Stephens, Camden Town, Middlesex.  Her parents were Charles (a newspaper reporter and later clerk to the St Pancras Burial Board) and Emily Greene of King Street.  Emily died in 1861 and Charles in 1888.  Eleanor Frances married Charles Butler in 1881 (she is "my daughter Eleanor Frances Butler" in her father's will of 1888) and they had two children - Constance (who died young) and Charles Jr.  Eleanor was noted as widowed (by 1891) and is shown (as Ellen) in Islington with Charles Jr and Constance on the Census of 1891 (21 Durham Road); and with Charles Jr in 1901 (245 Tufnell Park Road) and 1911 (44 Junction Road).  In 1911, Charles is 22 and an unmarried Electric Engineer; Eleanor is a Monthly Nurse.

Any information would be much appreciated.
Thank you.

34
Family History Beginners Board / Re: HAMMANS Family Tree
« on: Monday 04 December 23 11:58 GMT (UK)  »
Yes indeed RW, my first cousin, once removed. John was known as Jack in the family. He emigrated to Australia in 1948.
I didn't know he was a baker, like his father and so many in my family, and also didn't have dates for Elizabeth's birth & death, so thanks for that.
May I ask the location of the house you were researching?

The house is in Long Ditton, Surbiton, and I picked up Elizabeth Mary Hanmans (sic) on the 1936 electoral register.  I believe Elizabeth would have been working as a nurse to the elderly man who lived in the house.  His previous nurse had been taken ill and died in December 1936.  He would have been 100 years old at this time.  Although a slightly different spelling, I am convinced this is the same person - as Elizabeth, John Leonard and their son, Philip Reginald, are still in Surbiton (92 Queen's Drive) at the time of the 1939 Register. 

Elizabeth, a trained nurse, joined the Australian Imperial Force (1st Auxiliary Hospital), arriving in Brisbane in 1915 - she returned to England in 1917, and was discharged after contracting pleurisy.  John Leonard Hammans joined the 15th Infantry Battalion on 21 September 1914 in Casino, New South Wales.  Elizabeth must have returned to Australia as she married John in Queensland in 1920.

As you say, Elizabeth and John returned to Australia in 1948, after many years back in England, on board the “Strathaird”, and a photograph of them returning (under the heading “Passengers In Strathaird”) appeared in The Herald (Melbourne, Victoria) of Monday 14 June 1948, page 2.  Hope this link works:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/247298709?searchTerm=Hammans

Hope this is of interest.  My research obviously was restricted to the actual building and its inhabitants, rather than wider family histories.

PS John's battalion was the 15th, not the 13th as stated in the newspaper.  His military service number was "13", which has perhaps been mixed up.

35
Family History Beginners Board / Re: HAMMANS Family Tree
« on: Sunday 03 December 23 22:13 GMT (UK)  »
Hi

I have researched Elizabeth Mary Hammans, née Wright (14 May 1880 to 16 May 1970), in connection with the history of a house.

She was married to John Leonard Hammans, a baker in his early life, from London.

One of yours?

36
Family History Beginners Board / Re: Missing Marriage Record - help request
« on: Sunday 03 December 23 09:51 GMT (UK)  »
Are they on the 1871 census as a married couple?  If so - marriage was before census date

Not necessarily; for example (in my own family):

1911 Census
Tom Francis Greenland and Elizabeth Greenland
- married in 1937, after respective first spouses had died.

7 April 1861 Census
Edward Charles Green and Sarah Mary Green (false details)
- married under their real names (Charles Greene and Selina Greene) on 13 May 1861, after Charles's wife "drowned".

31 March 1901 Census
William Allum and Elizabeth Allum
- married on 29 July 1901, this being Elizabeth's fourth bigamous marriage.

1901 Census
Edward Ware and Florence Ware
- never married at all, Edward probably believing he was already legally married to Elizabeth (shown above as Allum).

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