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Messages - ogilmr

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10
Ayrshire / Re: William GILMOUR, b. Irvine c. 1811
« on: Wednesday 13 October 21 05:11 BST (UK)  »
I thought it would be worth updating this thread as I believe I have identified the parents of William Gilmour, and it may be of interest for any potential cousins who might be googling names.

No birth or baptism record appears to have survived, but William's death certificate contains some useful information. According to his death certificate, William's parents were John Gilmour, a weaver, and Mary Macintyre. No record appears to exist of this couple at all, but there was a weaver by the name of John Gilmour living in Waterside, Fenwick parish who died in 1855. His wife was Mary McNair, which I suppose could have been misremembered as Macintyre. Included among John Gilmour's children on his 1855 death certificate is a 45 year old William. John and Mary's second son was Alexander, born 1793 in Paisley. The youngest of their children whose birth/baptism record survives is a Catherine, born 1808 in Irvine. John and Mary had a daughter, Mary, who resided in Fenwick and was married to a John Husband. This tells us a few things: John Gilmour, weaver and Mary McNAIR, lived in Irvine just two or three years before William was born. Secondly, we know that they were residing in the parish of Fenwick later on, and so their known movements perfectly coincide with those of William prior until the time of marriage.
John's death certificate also includes a son called Gilbert, which is notable as William's son William Jnr., had a son in Australia named Gilbert Alexander Gilmour, so it seems that perhaps he was named after his great uncles.

I have therefore concluded that William must in fact have been the son of John Gilmour and Mary McNair, as the evidence seems to suggest that William's son John, as the informant on William's death certificate, simply misremembered his grandmother's maiden name, or that perhaps the name was misheard by the registrar.

11
Australia / Re: O'BRIEN Missing marriage certificate? (Melbourne)
« on: Thursday 18 February 21 09:46 GMT (UK)  »
Quote
Where you see a correction to place name in Clare...with Margaret as informant....does that suggest that she is literate?    And her siblings would also be literate?.   Just something to consider.

She was able to sign her name in the informant box, though her handwriting isn't great. Her husband Patrick couldn't sign his daughter Johanna's marriage certificate, leaving his X mark. Johanna also left an X next to her name, though her name is written in clearly different handwriting to the minister's. It looks like brother William and sister Alice, as witnesses, could sign their names though.

Johanna was a box maker at the time of their marriage, husband Charles Greenwood was a "packing case maker", so perhaps they met through work somehow.

12
Australia / Re: O'BRIEN Missing marriage certificate? (Melbourne)
« on: Thursday 18 February 21 09:26 GMT (UK)  »
I should also mention that on Margaret's birth certificate, immediately following is another Margaret O'Brien, registered the same day, daughter of Michael O'Brien, Labourer, 29, Co. Limerick and Sarah, formerly Tohay, 28, Co. Clare, married 1854 Co. Clare. This may just be a coincidence however.

13
Australia / Re: O'BRIEN Missing marriage certificate? (Melbourne)
« on: Thursday 18 February 21 08:21 GMT (UK)  »


For each birth certificate that you have can you please list all the information........date and place of birth.....date and place of registration
 .......ages...addresses....occupations....informants....dates....everything please for each.

NameDate of birthPlace of birthFatherMarriageMotherReg. no.InformantWitnessesWhen/where reg'd
William21st Sept 1859Derby Street, East CollingwoodPatrick O'Brine, Laborer, 28, Co. Clare, Ireland1858 MelbourneMargaret O'Brine, formerly Parrall16974Margaret O'Brine, mother, Derby Street, East Collingwood18th Oct 1859, Registry Office Collingwood
Mary20th Dec 18601 Fife Street, East CollingwoodPatrick O'Brien, Laborer, 30, Co. Clare, Ireland1858, MelbourneMargaret O'Brien, formerly Farrall, 28, Co. Tipperary, Ireland4124Margaret O'Brien, Mother, 1 Fife Street, East CollingwoodMs. Connor, Midwife18th Mar 1861, Registry Office Collingwood
Margaret5th Feb 1862Vale Street, HothamPatrick O'Brien, Laborer, 30, Co. Clare, Ireland1858 MelbourneMargaret O'Brien, formerly Farrell, 28, Co. Tipperary, Ireland9748Margaret O'Brien, Mother, HothamMr. Clinch29th May 1862, Melbourne
James19th Jul 1863Vale Street HothamPatrick O'Brien, Labourer, 32, Curraghfinn, Co. Clare1858, MelbourneMargaret O'Brien, formerly Farrell, 28, Tipperary21599Margaret O'Brien, Mother, Vale StreetMrs. O'Connor21st October 1863, North Melbourne
Johanna1st Dec 1865Vale Street, HothamPatrick O'Brien, Labourer, 34, Curraghfinn, Co. Clare1858 MelbourneMargaret O'Brien, formerly Farrell, 32, Tipperary, Ireland3587Margaret O'Brien, Mother, Vale StreetMrs. Conners12th Mar 1866, Melbourne North
Alice5th Feb 1868Vale Street HothamPatrick O'Brien, Labourer, 34, Curraghfinn, Co. Clare1858 MelbourneMargaret O'Brien, formerly Farrell, 34, Tipperary10.581Margaret O'Brien, Mother, HothamMrs. Demby?19th May 1868, Melbourne North
Patrick John26th Jan 18704 Vale StreetPatrick O'Brien, Labourer, 38, Curofin Co. Clare, Ireland (with "Curraghfinn" crossed out below)September 1858, MelbourneMargaret O'Brien, formerly Farrell, 36, Tipperary Ireland17.270M O'Brien, Mother, HothamMrs. Gonnan?3rd Aug 1870, Melbourne North
Hope that table doesn't come out too ugly.

I've contacted the address at the cathedral, not quite sure what to expect but hopefully I can get something out of them.

Quote
The snippet from the original image I added was from the records on Anc*y which can be found here Victoria, Australia, Assisted and Unassisted Passenger Lists, 1839-1923
Oh alright. I don't have an ancestry subscription, though they have got my DNA sample so I have a guest account, which seems to allow me to see the occasional record, though it's probably not supposed to.  ;)

14
Australia / Re: O'BRIEN Missing marriage certificate? (Melbourne)
« on: Thursday 18 February 21 04:15 GMT (UK)  »
Like everyone else I cannot see a record of the marriage.  I suspect it would have been at an RC church in Melbourne although it's possible, of course, that they didn't legally marry.

looking at your Herbert GREENWOOD- and you probably have this information anyway - I see him using the second forename of Fleming at his marriage in 1911
Victoria, 1911 #10027 GREENWOOD  Herbt Fleming,  MATTHEWSON, Violet
Unfortunately, there's no indication of where this marriage took place.

Doesn't help with Patrick and Margaret though.

Judith



Herbert married at St. Andrew's (Presbyterian) in Mildura.

Patrick and Margaret would have married in the RC church. Perhaps they didn't legally marry, but I can't see any reason why that would be the case. It's also possible that the BDM index has it indexed incorrectly, which has no doubt happened before.

15
Australia / Re: O'BRIEN Missing marriage certificate? (Melbourne)
« on: Thursday 18 February 21 01:31 GMT (UK)  »
I bought William O'Brien's 1859 birth certificate, says Patrick and Margaret married 1858 in Melbourne, just like the others.

The Fleming connection is fascinating. Patrick and Margaret's daughter Johanna married Charles William Greenwood (born Grenwald) in 1885, their only son being Herbert Charles Greenwood. Herbert next shows up in Mildura, calling himself Herbert Fleming Greenwood, and neither my grandmother nor her sister knows why their grandfather chose a different middle name for himself. Johanna (Annie) died of TB in 1890 and it seems that Charles abandoned Herbert not long after judging from what the circumstantial evidence from various newspaper articles suggests. No-one seems to know who raised Herbert or where exactly, but perhaps this M Fleming is a lead.

I've found the O'Briens on the Ebba Brahe on the PROV unassisted passenger lists, there were also two Mary O'Briens, one 20 and the other 21, so I presume some may have been cousins rather than siblings.

I will have to search around to see if any of the other O'Briens married. If they were from Corofin, "Curragh Finn" or some other spelling, then presumably they are related.

Where did you find the scan of the original passenger list?

Thanks.

16
Australia / Re: O'BRIEN Missing marriage certificate? (Melbourne)
« on: Wednesday 17 February 21 06:49 GMT (UK)  »
Do you have the date they arrived in Australia?

Could they have married in Ireland prior to immigration?

Could their eldest son, William, have been born in Ireland?

What's the first sighting of the family in Australia?

Every bit of information helps us find the missing rellies

Edit to add: Forgot to ask - Do you have other sources that confirm Margaret's father was named William?



I have no other sources for Margaret's father, however William, the eldest son, was the informant on her death certificate, and since he doesn't know her mother's name, I doubt he was just making things up.

Patrick had been in Victoria for 62 years according to his death certificate, and his obituary in the paper states he was a colonist of 61 years, so 1856-57 is a likely year of arrival.

Margaret's death certificate states she had been in Victoria for 27 years, so c.1857 again. Perhaps they had married in Ireland, but I am doubtful as Margaret herself claimed September 1858. More likely they married not long after arrival.

So I guess the first sighting might be their daughter Mary's birth registration in 1861. I haven't got this one yet, as they are rather expensive, but I'll get a hold of it in the next few days, though I doubt it will contain anything different from the others that I already have.

The son William was born in Collingwood according to his death reg. on the Vic BDM index, though of course that may be nonsense.

17
Australia / O'BRIEN Missing marriage certificate? (Melbourne)
« on: Wednesday 17 February 21 06:14 GMT (UK)  »
I am trying to find the marriage certificate for Patrick O'Brien and Margaret Farrell.
I have now got three of their children's birth certificates, on which the informant is Margaret. They all indicate their marriage in 1858, one of which stating specifically in September, in Melbourne.
I have searched the Vic BDM index countless times with * wildcards and haven't found anything.
Their death certificates also claim a marriage of roughly the same time.

I see no reason to suspect that they weren't actually married, as all the evidence points to them being a legitimate married couple, yet no marriage certificate appears to exist.

Their children were:
  • William O'Brien, 1860-1937 (birth not found, age est'd from other certs)
  • Mary O'Brien, 1861-1890
  • Margaret O'Brien, 1862-1863
  • James O'Brien, 1863-1933
  • Johanna "Annie" O'Brien, 1865-1890
  • Alice O'Brien, 1868-1960
  • Patrick John O'Brien, 1870-1942

This is of course very frustrating, as Patrick's parents are missing from his death certificate, and Margaret's only has her father (William).
Their children's birth certificates state that Patrick was born in Corofin, Co. Clare, c. 1831, and Margaret in Tipperary c. 1832.

Patrick's death certificate says he's older though, 93 in 1918 so c. 1825, though I suspect that was just a guess by the "authorised agent", who didn't know his parents' names.

18
Australia / Re: Charles William Greenwood, married Johanna "Annie" O'Brien
« on: Saturday 30 January 21 04:58 GMT (UK)  »
Elsie was the nickname of Charles's 4th wife, Elspeth Gellie Semper.
They had at least three children: Glory Denise Greenwood (1917-1990), Charles Herbert Greenwood (1921-2017) and Billie Nada Jane Greenwood (deceased on half brother Lloyd's obit.)

The marriage and engagement notices in the papers state clearly that they were the children of Mr. C. Greenwood and the late Mrs. E. Greenwood, so presumably Charles hadn't just left them behind like he had done with his children in Victoria. Not sure if there were other children from this marriage, but those are the ones I have found for certain.

What's kind of mind-boggling is that his eldest son, Herbert Charles Greenwood (alias Herbert Fleming Greenwood?) had already had five children before Charles Herbert Greenwood was even born. Herbert had two more children after that, the last in 1930, while his father had more children born in the 1930s, so that all of Herbert's children were born before the last of their aunts/uncles.

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