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Messages - DudelsackHogg

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Ladyhawk. What a brilliant find and a fascinating document. So much information there. Doesnít paint a pretty picture of John.

Need to read it over again and take some notes. Iím still away and looking at it on my phone - not the best way to look at documents. I do have an ancestry subscription and I can see the original document. Iím surprised my searches never brought anything up, probably the smart filter not being so smart, or probably me.

The first things that jump out are the parents names on the marriage certificate. Johnís father - John Hogg - Cattle dealer and Jeanís father - William Dunn - riveter.

Iím sure Jean later gives her fatherís name as David on her marriage certificate to John Ayre in 1896.  Spidermonkey, is that correct? I didnít order that cert. But if she was illegitimate the name may not have been known to her.

As for John, Iím slightly more of the opinion that we may be looking at two different Johns. However, the timeline does fit for one - I donít know where New York John was before 1884 and I donít know where Newcastle John was after 1884. This document does shed some more light on Newcastle John though as I now know he was a tobacconist in Kelso in April 1884. I had a quick look for him in the 1891 census but nothing jumped out. I need to have a better look though. He does seem like the sort of man who would leave country rather than pay the cost of maintenance. I also need to look into how the law handled such cases in the 1880s.

It seems strange, if weíre looking at one John, why he would lie on the first marriage certificate but not on the second.

I also want to check the Scotlandís people death certificates I have. I know I clicked on a couple that were wrong, but may well be right for this John.

I also have to look for the Turner ladies and see if they really were related. My goodness.

I really canít thank you all enough.

United States of America / Re: John Hogg and Susie Backman - New York 1884
« on: Friday 13 August 21 19:46 BST (UK)  »
Wow! You guys have been busy. Amazing work.

I really appreciate all your efforts, thank you so much.

Busy day travelling but Iím really looking forward to building a tree with all this new information as soon as I can.

United States of America / Re: John Hogg and Susie Backman - New York 1884
« on: Friday 13 August 21 09:46 BST (UK)  »
not much help here, either, unless you recognize an occupation.

New York City Directory
1884 no John Hogg

John Hogg, carpenter, home 534 W 35th
John Hogg, janitor, home 444 W 57th

John Hogg, dry goods at 115 Worth, home Mass.
[does that mean he lives in Massachusetts?]

John Hogg, dry goods at 115 Worth, home Mass.

John Hogg, dry goods at 115 Worth, home Mass.
John Hogg, laborer, home 1 Amsterdam Ave

as for the dry goods man, it would have been nice if they said what part of Massachusetts he lived in, if that is what they were referring to. I looked for him there, but there wasn't much to go on and I didn't find him.

Interesting. I donít think the carpenter fits. His father was a agricultural labourer/hind/gardener. Most of the family is connected to farming, one son goes on to become a baker. There are quite a few labourers in my tree.

Thanks for all your help.

United States of America / Re: John Hogg and Susie Backman - New York 1884
« on: Friday 13 August 21 09:41 BST (UK)  »
Fantastic thank you.

Itís interesting seeing all the names.
Living in Germany (Dudelsack is the German word for bagpipes) I recognise some of these names as of German origin.
Ziegler, Ferdinand Kauzler(?), Bachmann.
I would say this sounds like an Austrian/South German community (possibly even Jewish - Abrams?) in New York.

Ziegler - there is a chain of bakeries called Ziegler in Bavaria - think it has to do with brick making.

Bachmann - Bach means a stream or a burn as we would say in Scotland.

John Hogg seems a little out of place here. Especially if he is the Presbyterian missionary. But I guess New York has always been a melting pot of nationalities and beliefs.

Frustratingly, Iím travelling and away from my computer so wonít be able to chase all this up. My brain is already racing with this new information and thinking about new searches.

Thank you.

It might be worth putting a post on the USA board, with a link to this chain of messages so there is no duplication of efforts, to request help with the American investigations into John and Susie Hogg.

I did as you suggested.

Link to that thread.

Hopefully that will lead to something.

United States of America / John Hogg and Susie Backman - New York 1884
« on: Thursday 12 August 21 18:46 BST (UK)  »
It has been suggested that I post on the American board in the hope that you guys will be able to help.

I am looking into my 3x Great grand-uncle John Hogg who was born in born in Linton Roxburghshire and baptised at Morebattle Free Church on 17 December 1848.

His parents were William Hogg and Mary Waldie.

There is an marriage entry 1884 -  and a John Hogg marries Susie Backman on the 8th September 1884 in Manhattan, New York

Johnís parents are listed as Willam Hogg and Mary Waldie.
His birth place is Roxburghshire. The estimated birth year is out but it is an estimate. A pretty good match.

Susie Backman is listed as a widower and her parents are Oliver Abrams and Susie Syring. I think she was previously married to Albert Bachman - marriage date 29th June 1879.

There is a possibility that John Hogg left his wife (Jean Stewart) and young family and bigamously married Susie.

This John Hogg was a church missionary so travel may well have been part of his job. It seems likely John Hogg was involved with the John Knox Presbyterian Church in Newcastle. If this is the case, John would have left his family after 1882 when his third daughter was born or may have left when Jean Stewart was pregnant 1881.

Link to the previous thread:

Iíd love to find something else on John Hogg and Susie Backman. So far I have found nothing other than the marriage.

Thanks in advance for all your help.

I thought Iíd summarise and jot a timeline for John and Jane/Jean/Jeanie.

Speculative - not all confirmed!

  • 1848 - John Hogg baptised 17 December 1848 Linton, Roxburgh
  • 1851 - John Hogg Living in Linton with parents William Hogg and Mary Waldie
  • 1855 - Jane Stewart born 30 July 1855 Living in Hospital Glasgow, St Andrew Square. Domicile Dumbarton.
  • 1859 - Marriage of Jane Stewartís mother Elizabeth Stewart to David Dunn 22 Oct 1859 ē Dumbarton,
  • 1861 - John Hogg living in Kersmains, Roxburgh with parents William Hogg and Mary Waldie
  • 1861 - Jean Stewart - now Jean Dunn living in Green Yard, North Shields, Tynemouth with parents David Dunn (boiler maker), her mother Elizabeth and brother George
  • 1871 - Jane Stewart Dunn  - 142 High Street, Jarrow, South Shields. Living with mother Elizabeth (Charwoman) now widowed and brother George
  • 1877 - John Hogg and Jean Stewart Dunn marriage. John Knox Church, on the 24th Dec 1877. John Hogg, missionary to Jeannie Dunn, Jarrow - Announcement -  Newcastle Courant,  28th December 1877
  • 1878 - John and Jean have a son. William Waldie Hogg, Born 26th November 1878 baptised 4th February 1879 John Knox Church (presbyterian), Newcastle upon Tyne
  • 1881 - John and Jean have a daughter. Mary Elizabeth Stewart Hogg Born 10th December 1880 and baptised 18th January 1881 John Knox Church (presbyterian), Newcastle upon Tyne
  • 1881- John Hogg and Jean Hogg living Byker Parish, 2 Rosedale Place, Newcastle up on Tyne. John - Town Missionary.
  • 1882 - John and Jean have a daughter. Jane Alexandra Phimisterda Hogg born 17th February 1882 and baptised 5th November 1882 John Knox Church (presbyterian), Newcastle upon Tyne. Likely named after Rev. Alexander Phimister minister of the John Knox Presbyterian Church, Newcastle
  • 1884 - John Hogg marries Susie Backman 8th September 1884 in Manhattan, New York
  • 1891 - The three Hogg children are living with their Grandmother Elisabeth Dunn (formerly House Keeper) at Lundin Mill, Fife. William, Mary and Jeanie now have the surname Davidson.
  • 1896- Jane Stewart Davidson or Hogg (widow) 36 marries John A Ayre 6th Feb 1896 Morningside Road. Jeanieís parents recorded as David Davidson, annuitant, deceased and Elizabeth Davidson, subsequently Dunn, m.s. Stewart
  • 1901 - Jean Ayre 388 Morningside Road, Edinburgh with daughter Jean A P Davidson
  • 1905 - Marriage announcement of daughter Mary Eizabeth Stewart Davidson to George Robertson Brown -  Evening News 2 Sept 1905 announcement Ďeldest daughter of the late William Davidson, church missionary and Mrs Ayre, 388 Morningside Road, Edinburghí
  • 1905 - 1st September 1905  marriage of Mary Eizabeth Stewart Davidson to George Robertson Brown - St Mathews Church, Braid Road, Edinburgh. Maryís usual residence 388 Morningside Road. Father given as William Davidson -Church missionary (deceased) mother Jean Davidson ms Stewart. Witnesses William Davidson and Jean S Ayre.

So did John run off to New York when his children were small and remarry? Is this abandonment the reason for the name change and why the father is later recorded as William Davidson, perhaps something Jean told the children as in theory she would be marrying bigamously? I couldnít find a GRO death for a John Hogg in Newcastle 1882-1891, widening that search though.
I had thought I was looking at two John Hoggís but the timeline does fit for them to be the same person. There is still nothing concrete that says this John Hogg is my 3x Great grand-uncle, really all based on the middle name of Waldie.

Missing, and what Iíd love to find, the 1891 Census location of Jean Stewart - we know where her children are but where is Jean? Jeanís death certificate - will be interesting what the informant knows - and Johnís death certificate. 1861 Census for John Hogg, may well be the John Ch Hogg, found earlier, not found any other contenders so far.

I will update the board with anything I find.[/list]

I think that it says Matron, not mother, but I can't quite be sure.

Good idea to message the tree's owner though!

Oh, I think you might be right. I think it says under 'Where born, if in Lodgings so stated."

Living in Hospital
St Andrews Square
(Domicile Dumbarton) 

So Matron would certainly fit. 

Don't think this has been mentioned so far.

There is an entry in Newcastle 1871 for a 23 yr old John Chs. (Charles?) Hogg b. Linton ROX., a commercial traveller by occupation. He is showing as boarding in the household. Can't find it on FS to link, ref RG10; Piece: 5074; Folio: 61; Page: 41.


Thank you. I hadn't seen that record. I found the entry and can see the original on Ancestry. The Chs doesn't really fit, but this tree is full of twists and turns so it may well be.

There is what seems to be quite a well researched tree on Ancestry for the Dunns. It seems to have all the right 1861,1871,1881 census entries for Jean Stewart Dunn .

I do like the tree name.

I did check the 1855 birth certificate for Jane Stewart Dunn. Not sure that is correct. It records Jane Stewart (illegitimate) Mother Elizabeth Stewart Domestic Servant - not sure of the address. The informant is Mary Finayson Mother.

Going to message the tree owner and direct him to this discussion.

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