RootsChat.Com

Hi folks,

I had a quick look at the indexes for the holdings of the British Newspaper Archive.
[Such used to be visitable in Colindale, North London.
 However, it was moved to Boston Spa, Lincolnshire (non-visitable).
 Its holdings are now only accessible electronically - for free at the "new" building near St. Pancras.
 Else, by subscription over the net, for the rest of us what is no longer in the vicinity.]
Ref: www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk

Some district libraries subscribe to such services, allowing free access for their members.
[I persuaded mine to so do.
 Unfortunately I am long gone (out of the area) now - so library card expired!]

If you register, you can download 3 newspaper pages for free.
Such was just enough for me to determine the jist of the following Death Notices from out of the Belfast Telegraph for you:

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BT Wednesday 03-JAN-1962

Florence, the dearly loved wife of John JAMIESON, died in Hospital on 02-JAN-1962.
Funeral from her late residence 121 York Park on Thursday @2:30 p.m. to Carnmoney Churchyard.
Deeply regretted by her sorrowing Husband and Family Circle.
Several other notices from other family members, both at home and abroad.
Also from the Brethren of the LOL / 36th (Ulster) Division.


BT Friday 08-AUG-1969

George WILLIAMSON, dearly beloved husband of Mary WILLIAMSON, d. 06-AUG-1969
Funeral from home at 121 York Park to City Cemetery.
Deeply regretted by sorrowing wife
Also by Father-in-Law, John JAMIESON, and Brothers-in-Law + Sisters-in-Law + Nephews/Nieces.


BT Thursday 03-AUG-1972


John JAMIESON, beloved son of Mary, died in Hospital on 01-AUG-1972.
Funeral from his home 121 York Park on Friday @2:30 p.m. to Carnmoney Churchyard.
Notice posted by his daughter Mary.
Several other notices by his descendants.
Also two from the LOL Brethren celebrating their founder member, as well as from the R.B.P.
Officers and members were requested to attend in full regalia.

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So, looks like both John JAMIESON and Florence JAMIESON (nee McCROSSAN) definitely lie in one or other of the graveyards at Carnmoney.

Unfortunately, as you point out records of burials are variable.
Historically, everyone (of whatever persuasion) living within a parish of the Established Church (aka CoI) was entitled (and, indeed expected?) to be buried within its graveyard (by virtue of their payment of tithes).
[Though Jews and Quakers made separate legal arrangements early on.]

Even after the state directed disestablishment (in 1870) of this church's influence, folks would still continue to bury (provided that enough room remained within the purchased plots therein) well in to the 20thC.
However, CoI had no obligation to record either the event or the location of burials of Dissenters.

It was very common for partners to be buried back c/o their parents.
[Both of my grandparents are so accommodated.]

I recall that the formal recording of burial plots at Carnmoney did not start till 1964.
[This was when they built the Prince Charles "by-pass".
 An investigation was launched in to whether any graves needed to be moved.
 I understand (from a talk with the Vicar long time ago) that the conclusion was "NO".
 Our oldest family plot just made it within the new boundary wall!]

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Capt. Jock

Hi sjgrace53,

You gave me a giggle with your (Deliberate? Dark humour?) "mistake".
[Or were you simply failing to master an "intelligent" I-Paddy like me?!]

I've dragged myself from my sick bed to reply.
["Man marries defiantly in to family ... Mother-in-law present at death." Brilliant!]

Also, "Lilliput" is the correct spelling for the street incorporating the separate residences of John & Elizabeth.
[It is, of course, named after the fictitious island country created by Jonathan Swift.
 He was the (in)famous Dean of St. Patrick's (CoI) in Dublin.
  Such was apparently inspired by his visit to a country house near a lough in county West Meath.
  It had associations with St. Patrick' sister "Lilipat" (?).
 There he observed "little" people across the other side of the lough ..."  Click!
 This inspired the creation of his great literary work "Gulliver's Travels" in 1726.
 This was his great "piss take" (er, satire/parody) of society & politics of the time.
 As such he was expressing his frustration at being "exiled" from his beloved England.
 Such caused by his Tory "high heelers" stance rather than adhering to Whig "low heelers" ideals.
 George I became King in 1714, after Queen Anne's death, surrounding himself with Whig advisers.]

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Looking at a map of Belfast, Lilliput Street is located just off (South) of Limestone Road.
It is not very long ... How did it manage to incorporate 48 (at least) houses?
[Did some wit name it thus, or was it "designed" for the Hoi-Poloi, with a certain "Je ne avais quoi"? Hopefully not a shared (outside) toilet!
 In modern day parlance, such would be known as "social housing".]

It is close to the Eastern end of Limestone Road, before it joins York Road (?Now York Street).
Just down (Southward) York Road, past Hanna St., is St. Paul's CoI church (now St. Paul's & St. Barnabas).
[So it can only have been a few skips and a wee jump for them to get to the marriage venue!]

Opposite is the "York Road" railway station.
This was created as the terminus of the Ballymena-Belfast Railway Company's effort in 1848.
Such railway was extended through Coleraine to Derry in 1855.

Nearby (SE) to the station is the the Whitla St. Fire Station (created 1895).

A (small) tad further East are the docks, leading out to the sea via the Herdman, Victoria & Musgrave channels.

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I'd interpret John QUIREY's profession (on the transcribed marriage record)  as "Seaman".

Possibly his father William might have been a "Fireman" in the modern sense ("bee, baw, bee, baw").
[Assuming such was around ad hoc before the creation of the formal fire station.]

However, I'd vote for him being a fire stoker aboard steam ships or steam trains.
Most probably the latter.
[Hmm, if he was in employment with the Railway company, and had so been for a protracted time (e.g. > 30 years) then he might have been entitled to a "long service watch" and (unusually for the time) a company pension.
Records are in PRONI.
Success depends on company & timeframe.
I helped someone with this a long while back ...]

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You will not find any civil records of births before 1864.
So must chase church records.

? Start at the obvious (St. Paul's).

However, be aware that Belfast was boom town in the late 19thC.
Folks came from all over, due to the industrial revolution.
Steam engines removed the reliance on gathering power via water wheels from streams.
So manufactures could be located close to large conurbations / (ex)ports / (im)ports (esp. coal).

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I know the HARKNESS name personally from Aberdeen.
Many folks marched (arm-in-arm-and-off-we-go) from there (after disastrous famines) to Ulster (particularly Ballymena, which had many fast flowing streams) following King James' 1605 deal with the Earl of Antrim.

Later events record folks of that name from Ayrshire occupying prominent roles in the Scottish Covenanting army of the 1640s.  Such ravaged Aberdeen ( a "High Tory" Episopalian city).
Many were later (1680s) executed in Edinburgh, following The Restoration, during "The Killing Times", having been concentrated in to captivity within the graveyard of Greyfriar's Kirk, the venue within which "The National Covenant" had been signed many years earlier.
[The Covenanters are otherwise known as (even more) Reformed Presbyterians.
 About as far, then, from High Episcopalianism (favoured by the Royals) as could be achieved within "Christianity".]

Other HARKNESSes, from Dumfrieshire, went in to Ulster, but eventually settled at Garryfine in county Limerick.
Still there today, apparently.

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Enough (6 hours) for the noo.
References, etc. 2moz.

[Perhaps I will tell you my 19-Corvids joke.  Expect it will go viral soon!]

Take care.

Capt Jock

The 1841 & 1851 censii required all members of the household who would normally have been resident, but who were "temporarily" absent on the night, to be listed.  Such info was listed on a secondary page of the return form.
[More precisely, see instructions for completing Table 2, as presented in the PDF posted earlier by jonw65.]

Their geographical location if "offshore" only required the country name to be indicated.
[Even if within the UK (viz. "England", "Wales", ""Scotland").
 N.B. "America" might mean "(British) America" (aka contemporary "Canada").]

Given the timing (immediate post-famine) it is likely that they were farmed out as indentured servants (labourers of-whatever-sort usually), possibly through family contacts, for a fixed term (typically 7 years).
[Canada was promoted as a more patriotic destination to choose for British emigrants, following the successful conclusion (from the British view) of the 1812 war with the new Americans. William WHITLEY (for the colonies) & the great chief TECUMSEH (for the British) supposedly co-annialating themselves at the great battle of the Thames River.]

However, many indentured servants subsequently chose to move South (to the warmth!) once their terms were complete.


The "flying evil" might be a disease spread by creeping bugs e.g. Bubonic plague or Lyme's (Hmmm...).
[Searched "Old Disease Names" without result.
 Www.homeoint.org/Cazalet/old names.htm ]

However, it might refer to Cholera, the scourge of the early/mid 18thC.
Folklore wisdom allocated it's cause (infection vector) to be air-borne.
So, attempts to control it involved lighting tar barrels in the street.
[Such to "sour" the air.]

Totally useless, it was a water-borne bacteria.
So simply boil all water before imbibing! Preferably, drink beer!
[Sad, sad, sad - from our retrospective viewpoint .
 Science caught up later ...]

Capt Jock

Yes, the apostrophe has a rich history.
Its graphic is strictly upright.

Its two immediate cousins (acute & grave) are a tad more tiddly!
Normally used as diacritics (meant to be written as modifiers above underlying characters) they can also appear as separate characters in their own right.

Particularly so as outputs in transcribed texts.
Especially in computer-graphic-scanned/automatically-"interpreted" productions.

Check out Unicode.org, or NOT!
The standards evolved with the years, and implementations (e.g. ISO character tables) varied across computing platforms (Apple, Microsoft, DEC, IBM, BELL "UNIX"...), creating a huge cross-industry reconciliation problem of the versions levels.
[I worked alongside international language experts at Rank Xerox International once.
 Mind blowing stuff.]


The Republic within Ireland banned the use of the "grave" diacritic within Irish Gaelic in 1948.
[No doubt inspired by the rationalisations of the "English" language effected much earlier in the USA.]


I recall chasing a "M'" record once (which I "knew" must be in the online record) to no avail.
Then I put on my "alternative thinking" cap, and tried the "grave" character.
Top left of the keyboard. Bingo!
[Simpler method nowadays, supported by most browser searches, just use a "?" or two, or "*".]


I used to tease my erstwhile old mate, Mr. McHale, that he couldn't take the Mick out of me.
[I'm descended from an O'Hale!]


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Alternative record resource is the Tenison GROVES archive at PRONI.
He was a Record Agent (sort of legal secretary) based in Belfast.
He travelled to Dublin and transcribed many relevant records relating to folks in the North.

His productions are held/indexed (transcribed?) by PRONI.
They are also available on LDS microfilms.
A few are typewritten, but many are in awkward-to-interpret scriptive writing.

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Interesting to see your links with the Channel Islands.
Then, as now, 'Twas a lovely place to live, and also a tax haven!
Ideal place for pensioners (annuitants) to retire.
['Tis why major manufacturers, with links to the continent (e.g KEILLER marmalade, of Dundee), migrated their operations to there. Superb hub from which to access the furthest reaches of "The Empire".]


We had DIGMAN mariners/victuallers in St. Peter Port on Guernsey till around 1865.
Don't know why they went there.
[Though I did find two records of ships sailing direct from Guernsey landing cider at Belfast in the 1790s.]

Pip pip!
Capt Jock