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Messages - TheWhuttle

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Antrim / Re: John Jamieson & LOL 977
« on: Today at 01:09 »
Hi again folks (part 2),

Anyhows, I had a look through "The Hidden Graveyard" as published by the NIFHS.

This documents their copious investigative works within the graveyard located immediately South of the church.

There are 3 entries of potential interest to you listed on the index of inscribed names therein:

  Alexander J. JAMISON, d. 28-NOV-1883, aged 73
  Wife Eliza (Betty) (JAMISON), d. 09-NOV-1895, aged 76

  John & Jane HEWITT remembering dau Margaret Jamison d. 15-JAN-1885, aged 20.

  William JAMISON, d. 27-MAR-1931
  Wife Catherine (JAMISON), d. 28-JAN-1936
  Dau Margretta (JAMISON), d. 14-APR-1943

The designations for the grave locations above correspond to the NIFHS methodical gridding of the area, with e.g.
Section "D"
  being factored down in to
Sub columns "A,B,C, D, ..." [for East/West orientation (aka "the X-axis)],
  then further down in to
Numeric counts [for North/South orientation (aka "the Y-axis")].


Sadly I can't find our copy of "Carved in Stone" which is the NIFHS's production for the "old (aka no.3) graveyard, the one that immediately surrounds the church.
[They produced a CD of this a while back (cost was only 5).
 Unfortunately it is out of stock, and not immediately orderable due to COVID restrictions.]

I couldn't see any "J H 1" grave reference on that map that I posted.
[Many years ago, I knocked on the door of the Sexton's office.
 Only to be confronted by the Vicar, who was "filling in" for him.
 V: "Your not that fellow whose been writing disparaging letters to me
   about the terrible state of the graveyard (many, many memorials knocked over/smashed, etc.).
   No one ever contributes towards their maintenance."
 CJ: "No, no, no - it must have been my identical twin brother!  (A true statement!)

After that we always included some spandoobrees with any requests.
Eventually, Newtownabbey Council took over the maintenance of all the graveyards.
The last time I was there was just after they'd blitzed most of them with Agent Orange, wiping out all vegetation, and thus exposing the paucity of memorials.]

 I managed to persuade the Vicar to lend me the original of the map for a few hours.
 Then had to navigate my way (fast!) down in to Belfast to find a copy bureau.
 That had a certain frissant to it.
 I was wearing my nazzy new Christmas jumper, sporting an ancient Celtic motif ...!

 [Still, nothing compared to visiting the Society of Genealogists in the East End of London.
  Hop, on train early on Saturday morning, arrive ~08:30.
  Skip past all the detritus on the street from the night before.
  Some of it was still half-alive and aggressively begging for attention.
  I had to perform my best impression of Fagan to successfully navigate the obstructions.
  Those were the days of REAL genealogical research ... exhilarating / exhausting / rewarding stuff.]

Never understood those labels against the plots.
There is some correlation between their first letter and the family name on the plots, but it doesn't apply comprehensively.  Think that it had something to do with the "grave cloths" that were produced, but these are not well kept ....]


I'll try to unleash the third arm of TheWhuttle cod-head for you.
We have a route in to the NIFHS, so will see what we can stir up w.r.t. your research.

However, be aware that not all graves had headstones, and that many have been compromised, or were inaccessible from a safety perspective.
[Ours only had a low iron railing, with a "W" plague on it!
 The other end was "owned" by a large tree, such having engulfed the framework.
 Whether there were any names there will never be known.i
 Luckily one "older" member of the family could recall where the site was located.
 We convinced ourselves that this was right.
 Such based on the (inscribed) dates from nearby headstones.
 This involved application of our speleological (caving) skills.]


Will get back to you soon, hopefully with good news,

Capt. Jock

Antrim / Re: John Jamieson & LOL 977
« on: Today at 01:08 »
Hi folks,

I had a quick look at the indexes for the holdings of the British Newspaper Archive.
[Such used to be visitable in Colindale, North London.
 However, it was moved to Boston Spa, Lincolnshire (non-visitable).
 Its holdings are now only accessible electronically - for free at the "new" building near St. Pancras.
 Else, by subscription over the net, for the rest of us what is no longer in the vicinity.]

Some district libraries subscribe to such services, allowing free access for their members.
[I persuaded mine to so do.
 Unfortunately I am long gone (out of the area) now - so library card expired!]

If you register, you can download 3 newspaper pages for free.
Such was just enough for me to determine the jist of the following Death Notices from out of the Belfast Telegraph for you:

BT Wednesday 03-JAN-1962

Florence, the dearly loved wife of John JAMIESON, died in Hospital on 02-JAN-1962.
Funeral from her late residence 121 York Park on Thursday @2:30 p.m. to Carnmoney Churchyard.
Deeply regretted by her sorrowing Husband and Family Circle.
Several other notices from other family members, both at home and abroad.
Also from the Brethren of the LOL / 36th (Ulster) Division.

BT Friday 08-AUG-1969

George WILLIAMSON, dearly beloved husband of Mary WILLIAMSON, d. 06-AUG-1969
Funeral from home at 121 York Park to City Cemetery.
Deeply regretted by sorrowing wife
Also by Father-in-Law, John JAMIESON, and Brothers-in-Law + Sisters-in-Law + Nephews/Nieces.

BT Thursday 03-AUG-1972

John JAMIESON, beloved son of Mary, died in Hospital on 01-AUG-1972.
Funeral from his home 121 York Park on Friday @2:30 p.m. to Carnmoney Churchyard.
Notice posted by his daughter Mary.
Several other notices by his descendants.
Also two from the LOL Brethren celebrating their founder member, as well as from the R.B.P.
Officers and members were requested to attend in full regalia.


So, looks like both John JAMIESON and Florence JAMIESON (nee McCROSSAN) definitely lie in one or other of the graveyards at Carnmoney.

Unfortunately, as you point out records of burials are variable.
Historically, everyone (of whatever persuasion) living within a parish of the Established Church (aka CoI) was entitled (and, indeed expected?) to be buried within its graveyard (by virtue of their payment of tithes).
[Though Jews and Quakers made separate legal arrangements early on.]

Even after the state directed disestablishment (in 1870) of this church's influence, folks would still continue to bury (provided that enough room remained within the purchased plots therein) well in to the 20thC.
However, CoI had no obligation to record either the event or the location of burials of Dissenters.

It was very common for partners to be buried back c/o their parents.
[Both of my grandparents are so accommodated.]

I recall that the formal recording of burial plots at Carnmoney did not start till 1964.
[This was when they built the Prince Charles "by-pass".
 An investigation was launched in to whether any graves needed to be moved.
 I understand (from a talk with the Vicar long time ago) that the conclusion was "NO".
 Our oldest family plot just made it within the new boundary wall!]


Capt. Jock

Antrim / Re: William Joseph Matthews..Baptism..1829
« on: Wednesday 13 January 21 21:46 GMT (UK)  »
Hi stapler40,

Possibly the child was a "foundling" - deliberately left outside someone's door one morning.
Perhaps (any old) ?Arthur's door ...
[As such Arthur may not be the immediate biological father, but the child's "adoptive" father.]

Also, it was common for "unplanned" children to be brought up as "late" "offspring" of the grandparents.

If born in to a Roman Catholic scenario, then the baptismal date is likely to be "close" to the actual birth date, especially if it was deemed that the child was vulnerable and might die imminently.
If left unbaptised then the child's soul would be considered as having been left "In Limbo", unable to ever benefit from the full power of Christ's redemptive actions.
[Protestant theology removed this belief from its canon during the Reformation.]

Lots of young folks were flooding in to Belfast in the early 19thC, due to the industrial revolution.

The Ulster Historical Foundation claims to offer a complete record of all early RC church records.

A brief skim threw the birth/baptism indexes there threw up:
  Year: 1827
  County: Antrim
  Father: Arthur

Could this John (aged 2 in 1829) be WJM's older brother?
[It's a PAYG site, so ye'll hae tae pit yer haun' in yer pooch to see the full details!]

At least that is one hook for you to play with ...

Safe (voyage) onwards,

Capt. Jock
[Trawler of the murky depths.]

Antrim / Re: Eliza Jane Harkness Married John Quirey 1883
« on: Tuesday 24 November 20 01:26 GMT (UK)  »
Hi sjgrace53,

You gave me a giggle with your (Deliberate? Dark humour?) "mistake".
[Or were you simply failing to master an "intelligent" I-Paddy like me?!]

I've dragged myself from my sick bed to reply.
["Man marries defiantly in to family ... Mother-in-law present at death." Brilliant!]

Also, "Lilliput" is the correct spelling for the street incorporating the separate residences of John & Elizabeth.
[It is, of course, named after the fictitious island country created by Jonathan Swift.
 He was the (in)famous Dean of St. Patrick's (CoI) in Dublin.
  Such was apparently inspired by his visit to a country house near a lough in county West Meath.
  It had associations with St. Patrick' sister "Lilipat" (?).
 There he observed "little" people across the other side of the lough ..."  Click!
 This inspired the creation of his great literary work "Gulliver's Travels" in 1726.
 This was his great "piss take" (er, satire/parody) of society & politics of the time.
 As such he was expressing his frustration at being "exiled" from his beloved England.
 Such caused by his Tory "high heelers" stance rather than adhering to Whig "low heelers" ideals.
 George I became King in 1714, after Queen Anne's death, surrounding himself with Whig advisers.]


Looking at a map of Belfast, Lilliput Street is located just off (South) of Limestone Road.
It is not very long ... How did it manage to incorporate 48 (at least) houses?
[Did some wit name it thus, or was it "designed" for the Hoi-Poloi, with a certain "Je ne avais quoi"? Hopefully not a shared (outside) toilet!
 In modern day parlance, such would be known as "social housing".]

It is close to the Eastern end of Limestone Road, before it joins York Road (?Now York Street).
Just down (Southward) York Road, past Hanna St., is St. Paul's CoI church (now St. Paul's & St. Barnabas).
[So it can only have been a few skips and a wee jump for them to get to the marriage venue!]

Opposite is the "York Road" railway station.
This was created as the terminus of the Ballymena-Belfast Railway Company's effort in 1848.
Such railway was extended through Coleraine to Derry in 1855.

Nearby (SE) to the station is the the Whitla St. Fire Station (created 1895).

A (small) tad further East are the docks, leading out to the sea via the Herdman, Victoria & Musgrave channels.


I'd interpret John QUIREY's profession (on the transcribed marriage record)  as "Seaman".

Possibly his father William might have been a "Fireman" in the modern sense ("bee, baw, bee, baw").
[Assuming such was around ad hoc before the creation of the formal fire station.]

However, I'd vote for him being a fire stoker aboard steam ships or steam trains.
Most probably the latter.
[Hmm, if he was in employment with the Railway company, and had so been for a protracted time (e.g. > 30 years) then he might have been entitled to a "long service watch" and (unusually for the time) a company pension.
Records are in PRONI.
Success depends on company & timeframe.
I helped someone with this a long while back ...]


You will not find any civil records of births before 1864.
So must chase church records.

? Start at the obvious (St. Paul's).

However, be aware that Belfast was boom town in the late 19thC.
Folks came from all over, due to the industrial revolution.
Steam engines removed the reliance on gathering power via water wheels from streams.
So manufactures could be located close to large conurbations / (ex)ports / (im)ports (esp. coal).


I know the HARKNESS name personally from Aberdeen.
Many folks marched (arm-in-arm-and-off-we-go) from there (after disastrous famines) to Ulster (particularly Ballymena, which had many fast flowing streams) following King James' 1605 deal with the Earl of Antrim.

Later events record folks of that name from Ayrshire occupying prominent roles in the Scottish Covenanting army of the 1640s.  Such ravaged Aberdeen ( a "High Tory" Episopalian city).
Many were later (1680s) executed in Edinburgh, following The Restoration, during "The Killing Times", having been concentrated in to captivity within the graveyard of Greyfriar's Kirk, the venue within which "The National Covenant" had been signed many years earlier.
[The Covenanters are otherwise known as (even more) Reformed Presbyterians.
 About as far, then, from High Episcopalianism (favoured by the Royals) as could be achieved within "Christianity".]

Other HARKNESSes, from Dumfrieshire, went in to Ulster, but eventually settled at Garryfine in county Limerick.
Still there today, apparently.


Enough (6 hours) for the noo.
References, etc. 2moz.

[Perhaps I will tell you my 19-Corvids joke.  Expect it will go viral soon!]

Take care.

Capt Jock

Antrim / Re: FAIRLEY & WHITTLE of Lisburn 18thC
« on: Friday 30 October 20 12:35 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Doublebassy,

Welcome aboard young sailor!
[Looking forward to hearing your music - no doubt inspired by "Master & Commander"!]

Very keen to hear more of your genealogical interest.

My main WHITTLE family driver was "Sally" a fine old Southern States lady from Virginia.
[Last I heard she was sinking fast, and had passed over FT command to a Niece.]

From memory, the Hans name came in with the Georgians, following the demise of the Stewarts.
Recall that the family of Hans SLOANE, founder of the British Museum in London, were landholders in the area of Co. Down near Lisburn.

I'm a tad tied up immediately, finalising my dear auld Daddy's transition out of the Given Paradise.
Anecdotes/Ulsterisms filling my brain - must write them down!

Will respond more next week. Promise.

Capt Jock
[Trawler of the murky depths.]

Antrim / Re: Killead: question about marriage record
« on: Monday 10 August 20 00:55 BST (UK)  »
The 1841 & 1851 censii required all members of the household who would normally have been resident, but who were "temporarily" absent on the night, to be listed.  Such info was listed on a secondary page of the return form.
[More precisely, see instructions for completing Table 2, as presented in the PDF posted earlier by jonw65.]

Their geographical location if "offshore" only required the country name to be indicated.
[Even if within the UK (viz. "England", "Wales", ""Scotland").
 N.B. "America" might mean "(British) America" (aka contemporary "Canada").]

Given the timing (immediate post-famine) it is likely that they were farmed out as indentured servants (labourers of-whatever-sort usually), possibly through family contacts, for a fixed term (typically 7 years).
[Canada was promoted as a more patriotic destination to choose for British emigrants, following the successful conclusion (from the British view) of the 1812 war with the new Americans. William WHITLEY (for the colonies) & the great chief TECUMSEH (for the British) supposedly co-annialating themselves at the great battle of the Thames River.]

However, many indentured servants subsequently chose to move South (to the warmth!) once their terms were complete.

The "flying evil" might be a disease spread by creeping bugs e.g. Bubonic plague or Lyme's (Hmmm...).
[Searched "Old Disease Names" without result. names.htm ]

However, it might refer to Cholera, the scourge of the early/mid 18thC.
Folklore wisdom allocated it's cause (infection vector) to be air-borne.
So, attempts to control it involved lighting tar barrels in the street.
[Such to "sour" the air.]

Totally useless, it was a water-borne bacteria.
So simply boil all water before imbibing! Preferably, drink beer!
[Sad, sad, sad - from our retrospective viewpoint .
 Science caught up later ...]

Capt Jock

Antrim / Re: My Taylor line was from Antrim County Ireland
« on: Tuesday 16 June 20 16:23 BST (UK)  »
Hi tennfan,

You could try checking out this topic:

Perhaps try contacting Wyanga via PM.
[She was last active in February, but you'd better be quick ...]

I contributed some generic stuff there on the possible origins of the name & people.

Capt Jock

Antrim / Re: Looking for information on Charles Dickey of Millmount
« on: Friday 12 June 20 23:46 BST (UK)  »
Yes, the apostrophe has a rich history.
Its graphic is strictly upright.

Its two immediate cousins (acute & grave) are a tad more tiddly!
Normally used as diacritics (meant to be written as modifiers above underlying characters) they can also appear as separate characters in their own right.

Particularly so as outputs in transcribed texts.
Especially in computer-graphic-scanned/automatically-"interpreted" productions.

Check out, or NOT!
The standards evolved with the years, and implementations (e.g. ISO character tables) varied across computing platforms (Apple, Microsoft, DEC, IBM, BELL "UNIX"...), creating a huge cross-industry reconciliation problem of the versions levels.
[I worked alongside international language experts at Rank Xerox International once.
 Mind blowing stuff.]

The Republic within Ireland banned the use of the "grave" diacritic within Irish Gaelic in 1948.
[No doubt inspired by the rationalisations of the "English" language effected much earlier in the USA.]

I recall chasing a "M'" record once (which I "knew" must be in the online record) to no avail.
Then I put on my "alternative thinking" cap, and tried the "grave" character.
Top left of the keyboard. Bingo!
[Simpler method nowadays, supported by most browser searches, just use a "?" or two, or "*".]

I used to tease my erstwhile old mate, Mr. McHale, that he couldn't take the Mick out of me.
[I'm descended from an O'Hale!]


Alternative record resource is the Tenison GROVES archive at PRONI.
He was a Record Agent (sort of legal secretary) based in Belfast.
He travelled to Dublin and transcribed many relevant records relating to folks in the North.

His productions are held/indexed (transcribed?) by PRONI.
They are also available on LDS microfilms.
A few are typewritten, but many are in awkward-to-interpret scriptive writing.


Interesting to see your links with the Channel Islands.
Then, as now, 'Twas a lovely place to live, and also a tax haven!
Ideal place for pensioners (annuitants) to retire.
['Tis why major manufacturers, with links to the continent (e.g KEILLER marmalade, of Dundee), migrated their operations to there. Superb hub from which to access the furthest reaches of "The Empire".]

We had DIGMAN mariners/victuallers in St. Peter Port on Guernsey till around 1865.
Don't know why they went there.
[Though I did find two records of ships sailing direct from Guernsey landing cider at Belfast in the 1790s.]

Pip pip!
Capt Jock

Antrim / Re: McKinney Carrickfergus
« on: Sunday 24 November 19 23:42 GMT (UK)  »
MURRIE. A Perthshire surname, a form of MURRAY.

MURIE, MUIRY. Local, from Murie in the parish of Errol, Perthshire.
John MURIE and Andrew MURIE from Glendevon, exiled Covenanters, were drowned off Orkney, 1679.
[Hanna, II, p.253]
John Muirie of Path of Strouiehill,  1757 (Dunkeld).


Ref: The Surnames of Scotland
Their Origin, Meaning, and History
George F. Black. PH. D
ISBN 1 874744 83 1
BIRLINN, Edinburgh  1996
pps 620-621

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