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Messages - cathyvall

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Dorset / Portland Prison, Dorset convict information?
« on: Wednesday 19 March 08 06:33 GMT (UK)  »
My Great Grandfather, Alfred Grantham, was a prisoner in the Portland Prison Dorset per the 1881 Census.

Is there anywhere I can write or call to get more details about why he was there (what he was convicted of) and how long he was there?



Radnorshire / Is Norton near Cefnllys?
« on: Wednesday 19 March 08 06:07 GMT (UK)  »
On the 1851 England Census Elizabeth Bayless lists her birthplace as Norton, Radnorshire, Wales (about 1765).

Her maiden name was Jones per her marriage information.

I found an Elizabeth Jones on the IGI in a record submitted by a member of the LDS Church as having been born in 1764 in Cefnllys, Radnor, Wales.

Does anyone know if Norton and Cefnllys are close enough that this could be the same person?


The Parish of Clun register lists my ancestors (Jordan's) in the early to mid-1800's.  The writing is hard to read as far as the actual village they lived in.  Can anyone help me determine the correct names for what appears to be:

Little Loynoven
Upper Treverward
Bargenhead? Pentre

Thanks you for any assistance.


Lincolnshire Lookup Requests / Re: Grantham in Manchester
« on: Wednesday 23 January 08 23:13 GMT (UK)  »
GeoffE and Barbara:

Thanks for taking the time to read all I wrote.  Very helpful comments.  And thanks for the research on the marriage and for the links.  I'll keep them handy for future use.

I think I'll order the birth certificate for Walter Grantham Oct-Nov-Dec 1875 to see if it lists Feb 27 as the birthdate and who his parents were.  This could rule him out or it could rule him in but rule out the family I found.  I will keep in mind your information, Barbara, about what services the GRO provides.  Will post the next installment of this saga when I get there.



Lincolnshire Lookup Requests / Grantham in Manchester
« on: Wednesday 23 January 08 17:34 GMT (UK)  »
As a follow up to a posting I did about Mary Jane Simpson in Lincolnshire, I thought I'd throw this out to Barbara and Ricky and anyone else that wants to comment.  I know this is about the Lancashire area, not Lincolnshire but you were so helpful I would like your opinion if I'm on the right track.  Then I'll post the information on the Lancashire Board to see what they say.

One of the families you told me about might work.  It's the one in Ardwick, Chorlton.

To refresh the information, my grandfather, Walter Grantham was born Feb 27, 1874 or 1875 in Manchester, England.  He did not tell his family his father's name or where his father was born but one Census states England and the other states Ireland.  His mother was Mary (Larthy, Lardy, Clarty or other iterations that sound the same or Mc[all of these]) born about 1845 in England.  He arrived in the U.S. in 1903 (family lore says he went through Canada first).

1881 Census shows in Ardwick, Chorlton a Mary E. Grantham (later changed to Mary J) (born in Brigg, Lincoln about 1845/6) with a son Walter (could have been born in early 1875 in Manchester) married to Thomas (a police captain born in Canada about 1841) and other children.  The part about born in Canada doesn't match because the U.S. Census' state Walter's father was born in England or Ireland but, again, little information about him so that could be wrong?  RH11/3894, Folio 90, Page 37

1891 Census shows in Ardwick, Chorlton a Mary Jane Grantham (born in Brigg, Lincolnshire about 1845/6) with a son Walker (an indexing error?) (could have been born early 1875 in Manchester) and other children.  Mary was a widow and I found a Thomas Grantham (born about 1841) in the Death Index reported in Jan-Feb-Mar 1891.  Walter was 15 so maybe his father dying when he was young resulted in him not talking about him?  Also my grandfather Walter told his grandson that he was a "bad boy" and after getting thrown out of school for fighting he was put in the Royal Navy at age 12 as a galley boy.  If this is the family and the story is true, it might be that Walter hadn't spent much time with his father since age 12?  This 1891 Census states Walter was 15 years old and working as an errand boy.  RG12/3165; Folio 101; Page 2

1901 Census in Ardwick, Chorlton shows a Mary J. Grantham (born in Brigg, Lincolnshire about 1845), a police (can't read the next word) living with one of her sons (Walter is not listed).  Walter would have been 25-26 years old so would likely not be living with his mother at this time.  RG13/3675 Folio 63 Pg 29.  I could not find Walter Grantham in the 1901 Census (if he was at sea, that may be why).  I did find a Walker Grantham born about 1845-1846 living in Ardwick, Chorlton with a wife.  Maybe all the Walter's in the family I am tracing are really Walkers?  But I could not find a birth record for a Walker Grantham although I found a marriage registration for Walker Grantham in Chorlton in Apr-May-Jun 1896.  Maybe I should order the certificate and see what is listed for his mother/father?

1871 Census in Ardwick, Chorlton shows Jane Grantham (she may have gone by Jane then changed it to Mary then to Mary Jane) (born Brie--probably a misindexing of Brigg, Lancashire about 1844) living with her husband Thomas (born in Newfoundland about 1840), a policeman and children (Walter would not have been born yet).  RG10/3977, Folio 118, page 42

I also found in the Birth Index a Walter Grantham registered Oct-Nov-Dec 1875 in Chorlton.  The date seems late for my grandfather and, if I order the certificate, it may prove this is not my grandfather if the actual birthdate is not Feb 27 and, if this is the Walter in the above family but the birthdate is not Feb 27, that probably proves the above family is not my family.

The closest birth index I found for Mary with all the iterations of maiden name was a Mary Larthy registered in Jan-Feb-Mar 1878 (about 2-3 years too early) in Bolton, Greater Manchester.  This could not be the Mary in the above family and is likely not my great grandmother due to the date but I thought I'd mention it.

I also found in the marriage index a Thomas Grantham registered Jan-Feb-Mar 1863 in Stockport, Cheshire, Lancashire.  This fits with the above family where the first child was born about 1864 in Cheshire.


1.  Do you think I'm on the right track?

2.  Can anyone check if there is a Mary or Jane on the same marriage index as Thomas?  I can't find one but I'm not as knowledgeable about using the indexes as some of you are.  Maybe I'll just order the Certificate.  I think someone said the GRO people will check the spouses name before they send the Certificate.  Is this correct?

3.  Since the family stories indicate Walter Grantham was in the Royal Navy at age 12 as a galley boy, and that he lost an inheritance some time before 1903 because he was at sea and couldn't be found, is there any way to check people that were in the Royal Navy?

4.  Should I order the documents for Walker Grantham which may rule out this family?




Actually, you've helped me a great deal and saved me a lot of additional wasted time.  Not to mention a greater appreciation of evaluation and analysis.  I am very grateful.

Thanks for the explanation about cities, etc.  I'm sure I will be posting requests as I come across possibilities to see if it appears I'm on the right track.  Local insight is invaluable.


The bad news is I agree with you.

The good news is you helped me to see I was on the wrong track before I spent more money and time going down it.  Plus I'm going to be more analytical on all the lines I am tracing every time I get a new pieced of information.

I will start a new post after I find new information. 

Because I don't know the geography of England very well (I do look at a map and calculate how far one city is from another but I don't know what areas might culturally connect with one another), I think I can too easily be swayed into thinking, for example, that someone born in Liverpool might say they were born in Manchester because Manchester is the "big" city.  My husband's Italian relatives listed Genoa as the area they came from but they actually came from a smaller town 30-40 minutes south of Genoa.  I will certainly post when I have questions in the future to make sure I don't get off on another tangent.

Again, thanks so much for your help!



Thanks for the advice on leaving it on this Board.  I'm new to the "Board" experience and appreciate any advice on how to utilize it in the best manner.  You and Ricky have been so helpful and the Yorkshire Board helped me tremendously on a different part of my family so now I'm hooked!

To answer your question about Walter's parents.  You are correct that I have no documents or family stories giving his father's name.  The 1920 and 1930 U.S. Censuses give conflicting places of birth for Walter's father (one says England and the other says Ireland).  You are partially correct for Mary.  The 1920 U.S. Census states her name was Mary, 75 years old, born in England.  Walter's Death Certificate (info given by Walter's wife) states her maiden name was Mary Larthy born in England (but other family members stated Lardy and Carty [or McCarty]).  Full details are in the previous reply along with some dates.  I do not have any documents for Mary herself.  I do not have anything giving a birthplace other than England.

Again, thanks for any help and guidance you can give.


Continuation of my previous reply:

TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CENSUS REFERENCE NUMBERS: (although these probably are not my family)

1861 England Census for William Grantham (Walter's father for the family I was tracing) shows William in the Royal Navy (which seems to fit with the family stories).  (RG9/4434, Folio 65, Page 1,)

1871 England Census in Liverpool for Henry & Mary Grantham (RG10/3780 fol.69 p.31)

1881 England Census in Liverpool for Mary J. Grantham (age 35) born Gainsborough Lancashire with sons Herbert W. (age 8) and Walter C. (age 6), both born in Liverpool.  Mary's husband was a seaman at sea.  (RG11/3683 fol 102? p 1)

1891 England Census in Bootle (north of Liverpool) for William Grantham (age 56) (a ships steward) born in Lincoln and his son Walter (age 16) a "cook Sea" and son Herbert (age 18) a clerk, both born in Liverpool Lancashire. (RG12/2973 fol 104? page 9)

1901 England Census in Seaforth, Lancaster for Herbert W. Grantham (age 28) a bookkeeper, living with his wife and son and brother, Walter C. Grantham (age 26) a bookeeper, both born in Kirkdale, Liverpool, Lancas.  (RG13/3444 fol.41 p.19/20)

My guess is I was following the wrong family (bummer!!!).  In my excitement when I was in England 15 years ago that I found a birth certificate that somewhat matched my Grandfather (his first name and approximate birthdate, his mother's first name) and relying on the fact that there can be conflicting information, then with the coincidence of the Walter that I was tracing being a cook at sea at a young age and his father being in the Royal Navy as a young man, I just stopped analyzing every step of the way and blissfully went on searching that family line.  I'll look into the Manchester families you gave me information for and start again from scratch.

Again, if any of you are game for trying to help me, I will be eternally grateful. 

If I failed to give you some information you requested, feel free to let me know and I will do my best to answer all questions.

Maybe I have to go to the Manchester Board?  What do you think?



P.S.  Now I feel the need to go back to all the other lines I've been tracing and re-evaluate every one of them!  Probably a worthwhile wake-up call.

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