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Messages - CitizenSmith

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Travelling People / Re: Thomas Lovell and Union Bosworth
« on: Monday 29 August 22 11:19 BST (UK)  »
Hi Jenny

There are many references to the Lovells who were living in London in about 1816 in the book "The Gypsies" by John Hoyland. He devotes a chapter to London Romany families starting on page 173 which you can read free at the Internet Archive website:

The book is also available as a modern reprint from the Romany and Traveller Family History Society:

Some of Hoyland's Lovells are in Shoreditch - the location of St Leonard's church. You might therefore find it useful to collect their first names - Uriah, John, James, Joseph, Thomas, William, Corrie, Solomon, Betsy - as they could well be related to each other. Finding out where they originated/travelled/baptised their children/married could perhaps point to where to look for relevant and associated Bosworth/Boswell/Boss families.

Hoyland also refers to the schooling of the Lovell children, the streets the families lived in and where London Gypsies used to travel to after overwintering in the capital.

Hope this helps!

Travelling People / Re: Old School Yard, Tottenham Taylor and Draper
« on: Saturday 07 May 22 12:02 BST (UK)  »
Hello again

Many thanks for this reference. I will see if I can discover the street address of this residential development.

Appreciate your help and your interest in this.


Travelling People / Re: Old School Yard, Tottenham Taylor and Draper
« on: Thursday 05 May 22 17:12 BST (UK)  »
Hello JJ

Many thanks for this new reference and for your DM. I will certainly check this out at the Harringey website.


Travelling People / Re: George 'Sonnie' Gibbard - Gipsy Smith's (MBE) Grandson
« on: Thursday 01 August 19 10:32 BST (UK)  »
Hi Sophie

The information I have about Gipsy Smith's ancestry - largely due to the work of the late Romany genealogy expert Terence Lee - is that his mother was Polly/Mary Welsh/Welch (born c1833, died 1865) and his father Cornelius Smith (1831-1922).

Polly/Mary had a sister called Lucy Welch/Welsh. Lucy was the partner of Rodney Shaw (born about 1835) and one their daughters was called Matilda. Could she be your Matilda Shaw? I don't have any further biographical information for her but her family had roots in Cambridgeshire/Bedfordshire/Hertfordshire.


Travelling People / Re: Alfred and Rebekah Herring
« on: Sunday 19 May 19 17:01 BST (UK)  »

This family have a family tree in a new book just published by the Romany and Traveller Family History Society, in a chapter about the Heron/Herring clan. It's called "Ten Major Families of Wales & The English West & North" by Eric Trudgill. Can't see any marriages between Browns and Herrings in this specific branch of the Heron/Herring family but there are such marriages/partnerships in other branches.

It looks like the Everilda born 1840 may have died young as this couple named another daughter Eldarifa in 1850. (Or perhaps they baptised the same daughter a second time... :))

There's more about this book on this page of the RTFHS website:


Travelling People / Re: DRAPER's of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.
« on: Sunday 19 May 19 16:42 BST (UK)  »
Just wondered if you have been able to digest all the Draper material in the past four weeks and if you have any questions or comments?

Any information you have relating to these families would be very welcome. Thank you.


Travelling People / Re: DRAPER's of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.
« on: Sunday 14 April 19 22:30 BST (UK)  »
Hi Panished

Many thanks for all these - some I knew about, some I didn't. So good additions to my database.

All good wishes

Travelling People / Re: DRAPER's of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.
« on: Sunday 14 April 19 16:07 BST (UK)  »
Hi Poppy Rose

And, the last instalment, in answer to your question <<In the 1851 census, on FamilySearch, unmarried Hannah Draper has a niece Kelly Draper, aged 4, and a nephew Elias Draper, aged 9, staying with her. Does anyone know who their parents were?>>

I believe the niece's name is Relly rather than Kelly, perhaps short for Mirelli or Marella which is a forename found in the Draper family. Relly can be found as an adult as the partner of one Francis Kemp. In online census indexes, her name is spelt as Rahilly in 1881, Reily in 1891 and Ratty in 1901. She has a daughter called Fambridge with her in 1881, aged one, who in later censuses becomes 'Fanny' and 'Amy'. As 'Ralley Kemp', she dies in 1903 in Epping Forest Registration District aged 55.

There is one theory that Relly and Elias were the children of a Mirelli Draper, the daughter of Edward Draper and Frances Brinkley, who was baptised on 27 October 1822 at King's Walden, Herts. Mirelli married Edward Shaw at Holy Trinity, Cambridge, on 10 May 1846. No baptisms have so far been traced for any children of the couple - but it would make sense for a mother called Mirelli to name a daughter after herself, albeit in the shortened form of 'Relly'.

Edward, the father of the 1822 Mirelli, could be the same man who fathered the Draper children Goliah/Elias, Caroline, Randolph and Diverus and Hezekiah Carey that I listed in my first response, their mother being Mary/Mary Ann. Perhaps Mary died after the birth of Diverus and Edward then had Mirelli by a new partner?

Sorry to say, I have no record of the identity of the Elias Draper born c1842 or what happened to him after the 1851 census.

All good wishes

Travelling People / Re: DRAPER's of Hertfordshire and beyond, musicians.
« on: Sunday 14 April 19 14:57 BST (UK)  »
Hi Poppy Rose

The Samuel Lucas painting that I referred to just now that is held at Hitchin Art Gallery and that features Sam Draper, can be viewed on Twitter here, with Sam, his wife Margaret and his son Ambrose helpfully labelled:


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