Author Topic: MIs Much Hadham Lookup - TAYLOR  (Read 2991 times)

Offline G444eneva

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Re: MIs Much Hadham Lookup - TAYLOR
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 10 June 20 12:51 BST (UK) »
I know this thread is super old and you may have already sorted. But I can confirm that James Taylor is NOT directly descended from the family headed by 3 generations of "William Taylors".

He was definitely born in 1737 in wiltshire to William Taylor (Apothecary) of Chippenham and Ruth (Cowper).

This is not to say there isnt a connection between the two lots of Taylors in much hadham. They were both part of the landed gentry and there are multiple cross inheritances, assocoiated legal disputes about the same. I am researching this at the moment and hope to have an answer soon.

anyway if you are still looking at this and have anything to add that you think may be helpful please feel free to get in touch.

Offline pgaskell

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Re: MIs Much Hadham Lookup - TAYLOR
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 10 June 20 16:30 BST (UK) »
Thanks and you are right I have been able to confirm the line through William Taylor, surgeon, in Swindon. But pieces are missing. I can't find a death for William. His father, Alexander, went from being a hair seller in London to a gentleman in Swindon, but I can't find any further records for him. His wife, Katherine Edwards, came from a very rich family. I know that he and his wife both were deceased by 1711, William before 1747 but Ruth lived on for some time. I can't find her death either. Pretty much everything I have found and confirmed has been through the family's litigation in the National Archives. Except also James' wife was the administrator on at least three wills going back to and before James' mother. It proves the line but doesn't tell me when they moved around and why.

I appreciate your interest. Is it the James Taylor line? Or simply to exclude them.
Phyl

Offline G444eneva

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Re: MIs Much Hadham Lookup - TAYLOR
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 10 June 20 18:02 BST (UK) »
Hi Phyl,

I have been researching this on behalf of a friend and have just found myself being sucked in. The direct ancestor is James Taylor and like you I have traced back to Alexander. Tha National Archives are very useful. Nevertheless I am currently working on the "William Taylors" of Much Hadham as i think there is just too much coincidence involved for them not to be related to James even if distantly.

I have copied your text [and put my comments in square brackets]
==============================================
Thanks and you are right I have been able to confirm the line through William Taylor, surgeon, in Swindon. But pieces are missing. I can't find a death for William [Nor me. In the end its a pretty common name so we may just have to live with it] . His father, Alexander, went from being a hair seller [where did you find his profession?] in London to a gentleman in Swindon, but I can't find any further records for him [nor me - I am hoping an Alexander may yet pop up when i work through the "Hadham William Taylors"]. His wife, Katherine Edwards, came from a very rich family [The edwards baronetcy of york. She was d/o Sir James 1st BT and Maria Wright]. I know that he and his wife both were deceased by 1711 [Alexander in 1709 Swindon - how did you date Catherine?], William before 1747 but Ruth lived on for some time. I can't find her death either [Ruth married William Parsons both of Pewsey Wilts in 1747 - he was described as James's guardian in litigation in 1747. I have looked for William and Ruth Parsons w/o success]. Pretty much everything I have found and confirmed has been through the family's litigation in the National Archives [Yep. me to but newspapers, oxbridge alumni and clerical database helped too]. Except also James' wife was the administrator on at least three wills going back to and before James' mother [Do you mean Elizabeth?]. It proves the line but doesn't tell me when they moved around and why. [Their movements are interesting I am especially keen to find out why James Nathaniel (s/o James) moved to Cardigan]

I appreciate your interest. Is it the James Taylor line? Or simply to exclude them.
Phyl
=============================================

I have traced James line back to Yorkshire and Derbyshire (they are just as litigious up north). If you are interested. I tend to be a bit of a puritan about sources and am lining up visits to county and national record offices to follow through once gthe lock down is over.


Offline pgaskell

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Re: MIs Much Hadham Lookup - TAYLOR
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 10 June 20 20:23 BST (UK) »
Alexander's profession was given in the St Vedast Parish Records published by the Harleian Society - "of St Andrews, Holbourne, a Haireseller Liueing in Shoue Lane at the Signe of the Lock of Haire". There is a news clipping of his bankruptcy in London Gazette Aug 26-30 1708 Issue 4466.

I dated Katherine's death by her will PROB 11/523/364. How did you confirm Alexander's?

Didn't know about Ruth's marrying William Parsons but I remember something odd about the guardianship mentioned about 1747, before that it had been Ruth Taylor his mother.

The administrator of Katherine Edwards Taylor, Sir James and Michael Edwards wills was Elizabeth Taylor, widow of James.

I can't remember what convinced me that Elizabeth Tayler was the correct marriage for James at St. Margaret's in 1759. It could have been Elizabeth Ruddiman in 1760 same place. Do you have proof?

The Manorial Records of Over, Cambridgeshire are very useful about where James Nathaniel lived and when. Wish I could get to Britain again but that will be another year away at least.

Happy Hunting
Phyl

Offline G444eneva

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Re: MIs Much Hadham Lookup - TAYLOR
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 11 June 20 08:50 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the hair merchant info on alexander - very interesting and definitely adds colour.

It is quite interesting to see the relatively proletarian connections here (compared to other members of the family tree). Rebecca Edwards father was allegedly a tobacconist.

While it is not possible to be certain about alexanders death other than the fact it must have been before 1710 (as Katherine was described as a widow in legal proceedings in 1710). There is an Alexander Taylor buried at Christ Church with St Mary, Swindon on 19 Dec 1709. While certainty isn’t possible the family connections with this church are strong.

I can show Ruth marrying William Parsons by the following:-

1)   National Archive Reference:   C 11/565/36

Short title: Taylor v Phillipps.

Plaintiffs: James Taylor of Pusey, Wiltshire (son and heir of William Taylor, surgeon and apothecary late of Chippenham, Wiltshire, who was only son and heir of William Taylor and Katherine Taylor his wife, who was a sister and coheir of Sir James Edwards, bart, deceased late of Walton upon Thames, Surrey, your orator being now his only heir at law) an infant aged 9 years (by Ruth Tayor of Pusey, his mother).

Defendants: Jenkin Thomas Philipps, esq and Sir Nathaniel Edwards.

Date of bill (or first document): 1746

2)   Marriage of William Parsons to Ruth Taylor

“William Parsons and Ruth Taylor both of the Parish of Pewsey were married by License, February 2nd 1747/48” according to the All Saints, Enford, marriage register.  The License was issued by the Dean of Salisbury.

3)   National Archive Reference:   C 11/352/5

Short title: Phillips v Taylor.

Plaintiffs: Jenkin Thomas Philipps, esq of Palace Yard, St Margaret Westminster, Middlesex.

Defendants: James Taylor, an infant (by William Parsons, his guardian) and Sir Nathaniel Edwards bart.

Date of bill (or first document): 1747

I have not found (but havent looked that hard either) any further info for William or Ruth.

I don’t think Elizabeth Taylor was an administrator and believe she actually inherited the estate via administration in 1796, I don’t quite have the mechanism as to why this happened so late as Rebecca Edwards died in 1753, Jenkin Thomas Phillips in 1755 & Nathaniel Edwards in 1764. Which I think left James the sole heir. According to Baronetcy records he inherited the property - but not the title - via an administration on 16 Oct 1765. There was a subsequent administration which we can also see from the wills in July 1796. But James had died in 1767! What was the delay?

I too have James Taylor marrying Elizabeth Taylor in 1759 in Westminster.  I base this on three things (none of which are conclusive).

•   James was a gentleman (described as esq. on the register). Note also that there is an Eliza Taylor acting as a witness (Elizabeth’s mother?)
•   Marriage consistent with the legitimate birth of James Nathaniel in 1760.
•   Elizabeth eventually died in Westminster in 1822 (I would guess she was living with her children) but was buried in Much Hadham (as was James N’s wife Harriet when she died in 1827).

This wedding is one of the things making me think there may be a family connection (via Elizabeth Taylor?) to the “William Taylors” of Much Hadham even though James is not descended from them.
 
The other is the existence in 1717 of a Joseph Taylor as a co-defendent in a dispute (this may of course not be “our” Katherine Taylor”)  Could this be a relative of Alexander?

See:

National Archive Reference:   C 11/24/43
Short title: White v Taylor.

Plaintiffs: Thomas White goldsmith of London.

Defendants: Katherine Taylor widow and Joseph Taylor.

Date:   1718

I am delighted to be sharing information. I will pass on whatever i find (or eliminate) when I have looked at the various records in County/National Archives.

Regards

David

Offline G444eneva

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Re: MIs Much Hadham Lookup - TAYLOR
« Reply #23 on: Thursday 11 June 20 11:29 BST (UK) »
Phyl,

I may have something on alexander taylor.

1) a legal dispute by him againsta thomas taylor of chisleden, wilts (just 3 miles from christchurch swindon btw)

Reference:   C 5/272/16
Description:   Short title: Taylor v Taylor.
Plaintiffs: Alexander Taylor.
Defendants: Thomas Taylor and another.
Subject: property in Hodsdon in Chisledon, Wiltshire.
Document type: Bill, answer.
Date:   1704

2) a baptism in chisledon 1655 of alexander s/o noah Taylor.

A possible and i will add to my list of post lockdown investigations of original documents.

David

Offline pgaskell

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Re: MIs Much Hadham Lookup - TAYLOR
« Reply #24 on: Thursday 11 June 20 19:50 BST (UK) »
FindMyPast has shown me a record of a census  May 22 1705 having Alexander Taylor as a freeholder in Hodgston near Chiseldon Wiltshire - "Register of Freeholders of Wiltshire for electing a Knight of the Shire. WRO/931/1 So that is the property in Taylor v Taylor.

There were two Alexander Taylors in Swindon. One died in 1708 and the other in 1709 plus one had a daughter Mary born Dec 23 1700  Swindon PR 1279373. There was also a daughter Margaret born and buried in Dec 1703 and then William in 1705. At the same time there was a William Taylor, a Charles, a George, and a James and Jane having children there at the same time. Unfortunately no other wives names. Since "Noah" ever appeared later in the families, I suspect that was the other Alexander.

Thanks for that marriage.

On the side of the will of Sir James decd 1702 was the note that the admon with will annexed was granted to Dame Rebecca Edwards, the relict, sole exctrix, and residual legatee left unadmin now deceased was granted to Elizabeth Taylor widow July 30 1796. Basically the same thing was in the margin of the will of Sir James Edwards decd 1690 dated July 11 1796. And also on Katherine Edwards will of 1711, but a bit earlier dated Sept 10 1793. Rebecca must have been useless! Jenkin Thomas Philipps was left to pick up the pieces and then he was declared a lunatic in 1754!

They were a very litigious family! thank heavens, or we'd never know anything.

The White v Taylor happened after Katherine died, so I think it is not ours.

There is a comment in the church burial of Sir Nathaniel Edwards in 174 that he was "descended from the Tudor Trevor Earl of Hereford" Interesting since there seemed not to be an Earl of Hereford since the late 1300's.

I've loved having the National Archives give us wills for free, but I can't find Sir Nathaniel Edwards's or Jenkin Thomas Philipps

The other thing that made sense of Elizabeth Tayler as the wife was the presence of John Cancellor as a witness. A John Henry Cancellor is one of the executors of James Nathaniel Taylor's will. But I really haven't found out anything about the Cancellors.

I haven't really sorted out the Taylors from Foxholes Yorkshire. They were legatees of both James and Michael Edwards I think. There were so many legatees, I had to put them in a spreadsheet with their relationships.

So there is more to go
Phyl

Offline G444eneva

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Re: MIs Much Hadham Lookup - TAYLOR
« Reply #25 on: Friday 12 June 20 11:17 BST (UK) »
Phyl,

It is really helpful having someone else looking at the same thing. Two pairs of eyes are definitely better than one.

Alexander must have been reasonably well-to-do as it is unlikely he would have married Katherine otherwise (even though a hair merchant does seem a bit of a step down for an heiress).  One of the Swindon Alexanders was described as a pauper (in the Baptism of William Taylor s/o Alexander in 1705). If this is the case then it points to the Alexander of Hodston being “ours”.  There are several wills relating to a yeoman family of Taylors in Hodston dating back to the early 17th century including a Noah Taylor in 1694. Also an Alexander is referred to as s/o in the will of Elizabeth Taylor dated 1665.  So if (big if) he comes from the Swindon area then this is the more likely candidate. Also it can only be the second burial of the two recorded at Christchurch with St Mary (December 1709) because Catherine and Alexander are described as married in a legal case in earlier that same year (National Archives C 10/386/2).

ATM this still seems a bit speculative. But if so we have Alexander baptised 1655 s/o Noah and Elizabeth and further Taylor family connections back to the earliest will in 1603.

What I have done as well is email the Worshipful Society of Apothecaries archivist and ask if she has any information on William. Maybe something will come of that as I understand they have decent records of Apothecaries passing through their books. Another option is to try and look at records of inmates at Marshalsea in 1708/9 (the London debtors prison) – I don’t think this is available online so it will have to wait until after lock down to look in the National Archives.

Regarding the various Edwards wills I have tried to read the various side entries but  find the reproduction not quite as good as the main text. Maybe your eyesight is better but in essence Elizabeth I get was appointed administrator a long time after the wills were a) written b) probate and c) originally actioned.  It all seems a bit murky but I think the following sequence is true:

1.   Sir James Edwards 2nd BT died in 1744 after being declared a lunatic earlier the same year (see National Archives C 211/8/E21 not Jenkin Thomas Phillips btw).

2.   Estate (of Over) passed to his sister Jane and her husband Jenkin Thomas Phillips. Jane died in 1746 and Jenkin Thomas in 1755. The baronetcy (1744) and estate (1755) passed to Rev Sir Nathaniel Edwards. By which date Dame Rebecca had already died (1753). I haven’t found a will for her.

3.   When Nathaniel died in 1764 the baronetcy became extinct.  I have seen the note on his burial in the parish register and also the following from The English Baronetage by Thomas Wotton & Arthur Collins (you can do a google search with the text to find the exact reference) which says the same thing.

“This family (Edwards of York) is very ancient in Wales, they formerly wrote themselves Tudor; of the same stock of the Tudors (who were earls of Hereford, before the Saxons enter’d England) or Trevor, but, upon the marriage of an heiress, chang’d their name to Edwards.”

I also have (from Cokayne 1904) in respect of the inheritance after Nathaniel died in 1764.
“M.I. Admon. 16 Oct 1765 to James TAYLOR, “Esq.” nephew and next of kin, and again, July 1796.”

Which seems to confirm that Nathaniel died intestate.

Like you, I can’t find a will for Jenkin Thomas but he was certainly an interesting character:- poet, polyglot, language educator, tutor to the prince of wales and royal historiographer.

I agree it is fortunate the family is so litigious. I shall enjoy looking at the original documents in time to see if anything else pops up.

You are clearly correct about White v Taylor. I hadn’t extracted the Latin date from the probate and had given her the option of living a bit longer. I also hadn’t picked up the John Cancellor link though so thanks for that.

There are two (separate) Yorkshire foxholes.

The first is the Edwards which leads to York the second is via Ruth w/o William who descends from the families Dixon/Cowper/Bright/Metcalf all from Leeds and eventually Derbyshire. This second lot was also pretty litigious (and religious – lots of priests). The vital records are also good too but it is still a WIP for me.

I will let you know how it goes.

David

Offline pgaskell

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Re: MIs Much Hadham Lookup - TAYLOR
« Reply #26 on: Friday 12 June 20 18:13 BST (UK) »
Hi David

Lots of things

I had picked up on that "pauper" note with William's baptism and hadn't dealt with it. So we need to find Noah's will. Some searching needed here to put the family together. I had never searched back from Alexander. I agree our Alexander died in 1709.

I hope the apothecaries can help. There are so few records of William. And maybe there was a second William somewhere whose father wasn't a pauper.

I have Rebecca's will from 1723. It's pretty useless. Written in 1718/9 she leaves everything to her servant Mary Mithol. Jane left all her property to her husband and Sir Nathaniel (Exec.) and only five pounds to James, but presumably her husband and Nathaniel had no other heirs. I can't find James' will from 1767, so everything must have gone to Elizabeth and his children, probably James Nathaniel.

Jenkin Thomas Philipps was also investigated for lunacy (must mean dementia) - JT Philipps Inquisition of lunacy 1754 C211/19/P63

I never traced Ruth Cowper back, but I had noticed that a Ruth Cowper died in Swindon in 1735, Possibly her mother.

However, I meant Foxholes, the village in Yorkshire. Sir James and Michael Edwards sister, Dorothy married Hovinan? and had a daughter, Ann, who married John Taylor in 1674 in Kilham Yorks and whose children sent an attorney's letter in 1716 claiming their legacies from Sir James and Michael.

Can we switch to email? I can send attachments then.
Phyl
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