Author Topic: Thomas Penfold and Sophia/Soffia Orchard  (Read 36838 times)

Offline JAP

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Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 12 April 06 11:30 BST (UK) »
PS

I looked on FreeBMD for 'Persilla PENFUL', 20yo niece b Dorset Dorcester(sic), living with the ORCHARDs in 1881.

Pricilla PENFOLD, birth, Dec qtr 1860, Dorchester (Dorset), Vol 5a, page 313
Looking good.

But then I got into more confusion.  How does she fit in with all the census entries which Kate (buttonmoon) found ...

Looking good for Pricilla PENFOLD, 6 months, b Dorchester,a daughter living with Robert and Amelia PENFOLD in Uplyme Devon in the 1861 (in the list of persons not in houses).
And in 1871 with Robert and Amelia as daughter Pricilla PENFOLD age 11 (though she is listed as b Leigh Dorset - but her 13yo sister is listed as b Dorchester).
But 1881 throws a spanner in the works.  Robert and Amelia still have a daughter Priscilla with them - age 18 born Ibberton Dorset.
At this stage I despair ...

JAP 

Offline deb usa

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Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 12 April 06 17:11 BST (UK) »
hi JAP
 it is so hard to switch gears after all the fun we have had with the CARNARTON family.!!!!
since searching on the message boards for the PENFOLDS/PINFOLDS./...have have actually come into contact with cousins who have been searching the same line. This is the info that i have received from them:
JOHN PINFOLD b abt 1809 married HARRIET JAMES on 2aug 1831 in Pimperne , Dorset.(harriet b 1814 in warminster, wiltshire)
their children :
1. robert b.1832 (up Nately HAM) married Fiance smith
sarah harriet (vice versa) b.1833
2. john b.1834 married charlotte
3. william b. 1836 married diane sophia hewson
4.THOMAS - my thomas- married sophia orchard
5. charlotte b; 1838 married henry guess in 1858
6. elizabeth (betsy) b.1845/6 (dorset) married edwin orchard  b. 1844 in ledbury hereford...... married on15 april 1871 (note another marriage between the penfolds and orchards)
7. alfred b.1849 married louisa small b.1851 married 15 april 1871
8. henry b.1851/2 bridgewater , somerst married ocean hughes b.1851 honiton devon9 they had lots of kids ie; betsy, henry,defiance,orfirus,john,noah,vashti, albert,leonard -who married another sophia orchard!!!!-,sophie,william,caroline,)
9. edward b.1853 married rachel holland

 i found the marriage of john pinfold to harriet james -1831 pimperne dorset on IGI..batch # M159791
as i said earlier this is info from my "cousins" 
everyone is now stuck on where john pinfold/penfold was born and who are the parents of both him and harriet.
also other snippets of info
on 1871 census there is a harriet  penfold  (b;1814) living with her grandson william ... -my  william b 1873 who married bessy palmer (who's mother was amelia slack/smith/ knortton/carnarton lol)?  harriet is living in Lamerton as a hawker in a caravan on Callacombe Downs...also with her is granddaughter , charlottefrom paignton. harriet died in Redruth cornwall in 1878, age 63
 also sophia orchard (wife of thomas penold/penfull ) is buried in st Enoder ...tombstone has all the names of her kids on it
 they are all difficult to trace because of them being travellers...
why are my family so complicated ..... lol
 thanks everyone for your help
regards deb
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans


All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline deb usa

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Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 12 April 06 17:26 BST (UK) »
PS; i think a lot of the previous info that kate has found refers to the siblings and their families of my Thomas. i can match up a lot of the birth dates etc...
i am still going thru the info, also love all other stuff on the orchard family .
thanks again everyone
have a good day :)
Deb
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans


All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline deb usa

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Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday 12 April 06 18:49 BST (UK) »
hi eceryone again...:)
i have just bee scrolling thru the census info that annie supplied recently..ie: 1891 census:  showmen and other travellers .
unfortunatel could not find anything perstining to my penfolds but did come across
henry gess head 57 showman 2 caravans
charlotte gess (who was a penfold) wife 55 show woman wiltshire
mary gess 16 helston cornwall
rebecca gess 14 plymouth devon
alfred gess 9 helston
this is all under the title of caravans 383-385 Battersea Park rd Battersea London
 in my earlier correspondence  i had char;lotte penfold marry a henry GUESS...not gess
i know that this is not really relevant but does show how much all these families moved...also i wanted to just show my excitement at finding anything:) :) :)
thanks
later
deb
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans


All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline JAP

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Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 13 April 06 02:18 BST (UK) »
Hello again Deb,

Actually, I'm surprised at just how much can be found from the census about Travellers.  I've not looked at Travellers before this and I guess I had a sort of vague idea that the enumerators would not chase them up - but this wasn't the case at all (fortunately for you).  There were certainly lots of interesting families around.  And it's fascinating how the same names (surnames and forenames) keep turning up.

Your cousins have put together lots of information!
Incidentally, did you see the christening of Selina, your William's little sister, on the IGI.
PINFOLD Selina, bap 22 Feb 1891, Par Cornwall, father Tom Pinfold, mother Sophia Pinfold.

As you say, the IGI has:
John PINFOLD m Harriet JAMES, 2 Aug 1831, Pimperne Dorset
The IGI also has a John and a Harriet having:
Sarah Harriet PENNIFOLD, bap 3 Nov 1833, Saint Nicholas, Brighton, Sussex

I looked at that 1871 census entry which you mentioned (details follow) hoping that tracing some of the people in it might somehow lead to finding Harriet & John, and perhaps Thomas & Sophia in an earlier census.  A vain hope!
1871
Lamerton, Devon
'Caravan' on Collacombe Downs
PENFOLD Harriet, Widow, 58, Licensed Hawker, b Wiltshire Warminster
Do Elizabeth, Daur, Unm, 24, Lic Hawker, b Dorset Stourminster
Do Alfred, Son, Unm, 22, Lic Hawker, b Somerset Marston 
Do Henry, Son, Unm, 20, Lic Hawker, b Somerset Bridgewater
Do Edward, Son, Unm, 18, Lic Hawker, b Cornwall Dubwalls
Do William, Grandson, 8, b Devon Plymouth
GUESS Charlotte, Granddaughter, 11, b Devon Paignton
HUGHES Ocean, Visitor, Unm, 20, Lic Hawker, b Devon Honiton
JAMES Joseph, Nephew, 18, Lic Hawker, b Somerset Taunton

However, I came across some other family members as I trawled through so will mention them for completeness.

Listed in Barnstaple, camped next to each other, are Henry & Ocean - recorded as Penforld (transcribed on a certain site as Prurfold); and Alfred & Louisa recorded as Penfold (transcribed as Prufold)
1881
Barnstaple, Devon
Temporarily here living in Caravans
PENFORLD Henry, Head, Mar, 29, Licensed Hawker (Brushes), b Somerset Bridgewater
Do Ocean, Wife, Mar, 29, b Devon Honiton
Do Betsy, Daur, 9, b Devon Paignton
Do Henry, Son, 5, b Devon Exeter
Do Trefiance(?), Daur, 3, b Devon Paignton
Do John, Son, 8 months, b Devon Braunton

PENFOLD Alfred, Head, Mar, 31, Licensed Hawker (Brushes), b Dorset Weymouth
Do Louisa, Wife, Mar, 29, b Devon Plymouth
Do Louisa, Daur, 8, b Devon Torquay
Do Phoebe, Daur, 3, b Devon Newton Abbott
Do Moses, Son, 10 months, b Devon Newton Abbott

1891
Henry PENFOLD & Ocean (actually as Penfold!) are in a Caravan in Common Moor Lane, South Molton Devon with Bessie, Henry, Defiance, John, Vastie, Noah, Albert and Leonard.

1881
Henry GESS & Charlotte were in a caravan in East Stonehouse, Devon, with lots of children - but now Charlotte's birthplace is given as Dorset Weymouth.  And one daughter, Elizabeth 18, was born in Guernsey ...
1871
Henry GESS & Charlotte and family were in St Andrew Devon - Charlotte's birthplace as Dorset Weymouth
1861
Henry GESS & Charlotte and family are in tents in Camborne Cornwall - Charlotte's birthplace given as Dorset Blandford.
1851
Henry GESS, b Britchingley Sussex, is in Wandsworth with parents Henry & Rebecca and siblings.
There are quite a lot of LDS patron submissions on the IGI for Henry GESS & Charlotte PENFOLD and their family.

But where, oh where, are Thomas & Sophia in anything other than 1891, and where is Thomas's mother Harriet in 1861 and 1851 ...

Regards,

JAP

Offline JAP

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Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #23 on: Thursday 13 April 06 05:01 BST (UK) »
Here's another site which you might like to look at:
http://website.lineone.net/~rtfhs/links.html
From it there's a link to one which has lots of records:
http://romany.rootschat.net/

On it, in the census section, I came across quite a lot of travellers at Hampton Wick, Middlesex in 1861 - at a 'Pleasure Fair held on Thames Bank or Barge Walk, annually'.  A number of PENFOLDs there (and elsewhere) but none that rang any bells.

The baptisms includes quite a few of interest including (you mentioned this record) Robert PENFOLD, bap 22 Jun 1832, parents John & Harriet, Up Nately, Hampshire.

JAP

Offline liverpool annie

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Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #24 on: Thursday 13 April 06 05:16 BST (UK) »


See how easy it is - to go off on a tangent Jap ??!! ::) ::) ::)

I've always been interested in the "Romanies " and was thrilled to find Cooper was a prominent name ... only to find we didn't seem to be included ...... !! :-[

But what a fascinating subject !!  ;) ;) ;) ;)

Annie
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline JAP

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Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #25 on: Thursday 13 April 06 06:14 BST (UK) »
LA,

A tangent?  I wouldn't call what I've been doing a tangent  :D  Virtually all of it has connexions to Deb's direct line and wider family.

Though unfortunately finding Harriet (or John & Harriet) on a census pre-1871, or Thomas & Sophia pre-1891 is not yielding to any of my efforts - I am hoping that someone else will have more success.  However, that's why I've been trawling the wider families -  hoping that Deb's direct line ancestors might be camping nearby, or that there might be some clue in the records of the wider family (even an unexpected spelling/transcription variation which might just open the door).  But no luck to date.

JAP.
PS: Yes, it is a fascinating subject and one on which I found I was lamentably ignorant.  I've just pulled George Borrow's 'Lavengro' out of the bookshelf - I remember reading it as a very young person (more years ago than I could possibly admit) and being surprised that I didn't enjoy it much; perhaps it may be different when I re-read it through the prism of what I have learned over the past couple of days courtesy of Deb's people.
PPS: Now to a real tangent - belongs on the Lighter Side but I'll include it here as a PPS.  In my search for people with forename Defiance (Def*), I came across the following excellent name:
Definitely Derided WALLERS, a 3yo son.
What a name!
Try working that one out - if you give up, look for the poor little soul in the 1871 England census.
A clue - it's not a censuswhack.

Offline deb usa

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Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #26 on: Thursday 13 April 06 15:36 BST (UK) »
hi JAP and Annie
I am , again, having fun with my gypsy PENFOLDS .:)
I am really excited with all the recent info and am in complete awe at your searching skills.... how Do you find all these variants of the penfold name????preful, etc...please let me know so that i can help with the search.
another thing that i have come across and maybe not part of my family (but maybe worth mentioning).... is a STANDING PENNIFOLD b. 1778 and had many many kids including one JOHN STANDING PENFOLD b abt 1809 in mayfield sussex.(see how the surname changes !!!)
with the variant on the name penfold/pinfold/penfull/preful...maybe an older spelling of the surname pennifold/pennifield/pennyfold is not too bad a guess ??!!!!!!
 okay well it seems like i am the one going that is going off on a tangent  :P ...but i would rather mention stuff that i have gathered than not
hope to hear from you soon
deb
ps thanks for the sites that you posted annie, i will have a look and see if i can match something up with my family.
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans


All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk