Thomas Penfold and Sophia/Soffia Orchard

[Jules 2]

Please excuse the butting in, but I have read this thread with interest. 
I am trying to do some research for a friend of mine who has Penfold/James/Small conections.
I have found G. Grandmothers' Helen (Ellen) Penfold nee Small and Vashtie James nee Small. Their children married (we think) and had many children including Mark, Eliza, John, Vashti (Vastie), Jenty (Genty) Harriet, Prissy, Missy.
I wonder if you have found any link to the Penfold family you are looking for, I have found some of the Penfolds' that you have listed but we haven't found a direct link as yet.

Thanks in advance. 

[deb usa]

Hi Jules
 We love butting in...especially when there may be a direct connection to family members.
okay ..this may get complicated but bare with me....
John Pinfold/penfold married harriet james in 1836 in pimperne dorset.... they had a lot of kids ...one of them being my ggrandfather Thomas penfold (b.abt 1841) ..he married Sophia orchard (b abt 1846) in south molton devon in 1866.
they had lots of kids
defiance b 1872
John b1874...he married Ellen small (this is your friends family)
christona b 1873
William b abt 1874 married bessie palmer...this is my ggrandfather
christopher
edward
soffia
nelson
elizabeth
harriet
missy
selina

so to recap your friends gr grandfather (john who married ellen small) is the brother of my gr grandfather william who married bessie palmer.
 John penfold and ellen small had these kids;
mark, eliza,john, vashtie, misselli,genty,edward,priscilla,harriet, sophie,helen.
your friend and i would then have the same gg grandparents ie; Thomas penfold and Sophia orchard
and the same ggg grandparents ie; John pinfold/penfold and Harriet James.

all of these folk were gypsy travellers and used to , by all accounts , travel together...therefore we find them all marrying each other over and over again.... eg:
another of john and harriets children elizabeth (betsy)penfold b.1845 married Edwin Orchard ...another penfold/orchard marriage
also alfred (son of john and harriet b.1850) married a louisa small ...they had abt 7 kids ...another penfold /small marriage ...although this one not directly related to your friends penfold/small marriage...
i hope all of this makes sense!
hope to hear from you soon
deb

[deb usa]

me again
just a PS:
you could try these sites they are great
www.penfold-genealogy@tiscali.co.uk
www.PENFOLD-L@rootsweb.com
I have actually come into contact with a number of living rellies..ie: cousins ..who i had no idea exsisted!!!
 
also i have actually been in contact with someone who is a direct relation to your friend...her mother or grandmother is Sophie -  daughter of john penfold and ellen small.
i will try to find details for you
hope this helps you , jules
regards
deb

[Jules 2]

This is fantastic.

I am going to let him know all this new info. 

He is the grandson of Genty Penfold. She married John Albert James. Vashtie James's Son (another James wedding !) and had John, William, Vashtie, Jenty and Liberty. He is the Son of Jenty.

I will speak to him on Tues and try and get some more info for you.

Thanks for the web sites I will have a look now.

Regards

Jules

[Jules 2]

I have been looking for John and Harriet Penfold prior to 1871 when Harriet is stated as a widow.
I think I have found them on the 1861.

RG9/1601 Folio 40 Page 30

Minehead

John Penford Head 52 Travelling Hawker b. Warminster
Harriett Penford Wife 49 Berkshire Kingclere
Thomas Penford Son 20 b. Dorset Poole
Christopher Penford Son 18 b. Somerset Taunton
Elizabeth Penford 16 Daughter b. Dorset Gladford (sic)
Alfred Penford 13 son b. Somerset Chalton
Henry Penford 10 son b. Somerset Bridgewater
Edward Penford 8 son b. Cornwall Dobbwalls

Still looking for them on the 1851 but what do you think ?

Regards

Jules

[JAP]

Jules, what an excellent find!
I guess all (surviving) older children had left home - Deb had marriages for most of them before 1861.  Incidentally, Christopher wasn't in Deb's list of children.
Let's hope you find the family in 1851 now!
Great that Deb's Thomas is there in 1861.  But he and his wife (he married Sophia ORCHARD in 1866) and children are yet to be found in 1871 and 1881 (they were found in 1891 under PENFULL).
Cheers,
JAP

[deb usa]

Hi
 Blimey jules ..how did you find them in 1861?  i was searching today but using their kids names ...any of them born after 1850 hoping to find them> wow ...well done!!!!!
 iI was under the impression that harriet was born in warminster and not john and as JAP pointed out , christopher is a family name ( christopher, christona) but i did not have him as a brother to thomas b abt 1841.
what a find ...... yey!!!
john pinfold/penfold ..hubby of harriet died in 1870 at age 64 .
so where are they in 1851 and who are the parents of john pinfold  and harriet james?
 Also where are thomas and sophia in '71 and "81 ...will keep looking !

thanks again .... i am soo happyyou have found them!!!!!
deb x

[deb usa]

Hi guys
I have been sitting at this computer searching when in actual fact i should be doing housework!!!! lol
i have not yet found Thomas and Sophia's info but have found some info that might be part of 'our' penfolds..... what do you think?

1891 census
RG12/1771 fol 73 pg 11 - A family of Henry penfold b. 1852 ( 2nd youngest child of John and Harriet (nee james) penfold:?)
south molton devon
henry - head- 40 licensed hawker
ocean (mistranscribed as orean) - 39
bessie -dau - hawker assistant 19
henry -son-     "            "             15
defiance-dau- 13
john 10
vasti 6
noah 8?
albert 3
leonard 1

then i found on 1901 census: family of Edward Penfold b 1853- (youngest son of john and harriet ??)
RG 13/2181 fol 70 pg 12
living at Truscott Farm rural district of Launceston (part of)
they do not give names here , just initials....
 ( In my miscellaneous info i have Edward married to Rachel Holland )
so this is the info
edward  -head b abt 1853 (on original ...he is a hawker and horse dealer...the word stable has been added.
R penfold -wife- abt 1855
john penfold -son - abt 1882
L penfold  - dau - abt 1885
J penfold -son - abt 1888
H penfold - dau - abt1892
T penfold -son - abt 1894
C penfold - son - abt 1895
M penfold - son- abt 1896

pity that there are no names ...but i am sure we could have a good guess at them ...lol... maybe a harriett , christopher, thomas ??/
 ....
hope to hear from you all soon
deb
ps let me know what you think!~

[Jules 2]

We're on the same track.  I had those printed out too.  Still looking for them on the 1817 and 1881.  Have you seen the Penfold family on 1881 RG11/2086 pages 22 and 23 they must fit in somewhere.

Jules