Author Topic: Thomas Penfold and Sophia/Soffia Orchard  (Read 36842 times)

Offline buttonmoon

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,050
    • View Profile
Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #9 on: Friday 03 February 06 20:11 GMT (UK) »
I've found them on the 91 census, it says that Thomas was born in Edinburgh.

Kate.
Cavan - FLYNN & NEARY
Donegal - O'DONNELL
Dublin - BRADY, GREEN, NEILL & ST LEGER
Kerry - CRIMEEN, CROWLY & DONOGHUE
Longford - FLYNN, WHELAN & DAVIS
Sligo - FLYNN & HEALY
Wicklow - CLARE, COLEY, CRIMEEN, CUNNIAM, DOYLE, FLYNN, MURPHY, O'BYRNE & SUTTON
Devon, Som, Glam & Mon - BISSETT
Gloucs, Glam & Mon - ROBERTS
Here, Brec & Mon - WATKINS
Mon - ISRAEL, LEWIS, MATTHEWS, MORGAN & PROBERT
Salop & Mon - EVANS
Census info is crown copyright www.nationalarchives.co

Offline deb usa

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,394
    • View Profile
Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #10 on: Friday 03 February 06 21:05 GMT (UK) »
where do we go from here.... where do you find all this research , guys.... i just seem to be going from place to place and scrolling thru 1000's of names...... i would like to join  on the search
thanks for all the help


can't tell you how it makes me feel,,,, maybe you do know?
deb :)
Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans


All UK census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline buttonmoon

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,050
    • View Profile
Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 04 February 06 09:14 GMT (UK) »
Hi Deb, I've found all the info on www.Ancestry.co.uk, although the reason we may be having to scroll through so many is that they may have been mistranscribed, which happens a lot on Ancestry.
 I have been researching my Israel family for two years now and it was only a two weeks ago that I found them on two census' which gave been more names to work with. They had been stated as Jsriel (I would never have thought to put that in my search), so they may be out there its just a case of different options!
 The thing with traveller families though is that they moved around so much that they may have been missed.
 Ancestry is quite expensive, I don't know about any other sites that are cheaper and its not as if you can just pop to Blighty to see parish records and so forth.
 I will keep searching for you and let you know what I find.

Don't give up!

Regards
Kate.
Cavan - FLYNN & NEARY
Donegal - O'DONNELL
Dublin - BRADY, GREEN, NEILL & ST LEGER
Kerry - CRIMEEN, CROWLY & DONOGHUE
Longford - FLYNN, WHELAN & DAVIS
Sligo - FLYNN & HEALY
Wicklow - CLARE, COLEY, CRIMEEN, CUNNIAM, DOYLE, FLYNN, MURPHY, O'BYRNE & SUTTON
Devon, Som, Glam & Mon - BISSETT
Gloucs, Glam & Mon - ROBERTS
Here, Brec & Mon - WATKINS
Mon - ISRAEL, LEWIS, MATTHEWS, MORGAN & PROBERT
Salop & Mon - EVANS
Census info is crown copyright www.nationalarchives.co


Offline buttonmoon

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,050
    • View Profile
Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 04 February 06 09:30 GMT (UK) »
Thomas Penfold definately married Sophia Orchard in South Molton in 1866.

Thomas Penfold
married
Sophia Orchard
Apr-May-Jun quarter
1866
Disrtict: South Molton
Volume: 5b
Page: 833

it might be worth getting the marriage cert as they normally state the fathers name's and occupations of both applicants and also the witness' present.

You can get these certs from the General Register Office. You can order them online (which is cheaper) at www.gro.gov.uk. They don't say how much it costs for oversea's, but in Britain they cost £7 each which is about $12-$13. It might cost you that but may take longer to arrive.
 At least if you have the marriage cert you have a basis to work with!
 Let me know what you think.

All the best
Kate.
Cavan - FLYNN & NEARY
Donegal - O'DONNELL
Dublin - BRADY, GREEN, NEILL & ST LEGER
Kerry - CRIMEEN, CROWLY & DONOGHUE
Longford - FLYNN, WHELAN & DAVIS
Sligo - FLYNN & HEALY
Wicklow - CLARE, COLEY, CRIMEEN, CUNNIAM, DOYLE, FLYNN, MURPHY, O'BYRNE & SUTTON
Devon, Som, Glam & Mon - BISSETT
Gloucs, Glam & Mon - ROBERTS
Here, Brec & Mon - WATKINS
Mon - ISRAEL, LEWIS, MATTHEWS, MORGAN & PROBERT
Salop & Mon - EVANS
Census info is crown copyright www.nationalarchives.co

Offline buttonmoon

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,050
    • View Profile
Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 04 February 06 11:17 GMT (UK) »
I don't know if this is going to help or make you more confused. Found the family I found in the 61 and 71 census' living Hod Hill Lane, Shilling Okeford, Dorset in the 1881

Robert Penfold 65 born Bremer, Wiltshire a brushmaker
Amelia 66 born Canterbury, Kent                        "
Elizabeth 21 born Burton, Dorset                        "
Pricilla 18 born Ibberton, Dorset                         "

also living Hod Hill Lane

Henry Penfold 23 born Yeovil, Somerset a brushmaker
Charlotte 22 born Portsmouth, Hampshire        "
Henry 6 born Gosport, Hampshire
William 5 born Weymouth, Dorset
Charlotte 3 born Bridport, Dorset
Amelia 4 monthes born Southampton, Hampshire

and

James Penfold 27 born Bridgewater, Somerset a brushmaker
Pricilla 24 born Portsmouth, Hampshire a brushmaker
Pricilla 6 born Chard, Somerset
John 5 born Cerne, Dorset
Patience 3 born Weymouth, Dorset

and

Thomas Penfold 35 born Weymouth, Dorset a brushmaker
Patience 29 born Shoreham, Sussex                      "
Patience 9 born Weymouth, Dorset                        "
Robert 5 born Moredon, Dorset
Elizabeth 6 monthes born Farnham, Surrey

RG11/2086
160
23

I guess its better to have these details in case you match them up later in your search for your Thomas.

Kate.
Cavan - FLYNN & NEARY
Donegal - O'DONNELL
Dublin - BRADY, GREEN, NEILL & ST LEGER
Kerry - CRIMEEN, CROWLY & DONOGHUE
Longford - FLYNN, WHELAN & DAVIS
Sligo - FLYNN & HEALY
Wicklow - CLARE, COLEY, CRIMEEN, CUNNIAM, DOYLE, FLYNN, MURPHY, O'BYRNE & SUTTON
Devon, Som, Glam & Mon - BISSETT
Gloucs, Glam & Mon - ROBERTS
Here, Brec & Mon - WATKINS
Mon - ISRAEL, LEWIS, MATTHEWS, MORGAN & PROBERT
Salop & Mon - EVANS
Census info is crown copyright www.nationalarchives.co

Offline buttonmoon

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,050
    • View Profile
Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 04 February 06 12:43 GMT (UK) »
1891 census

James Penfold (no age or place of birth given) a licensed hawker
Pricilla                           "
Pricilla 16
Johnny 12
Patience 11
Olis 7
A;fred 5
Rose 3
Fairfut 9 monthes
William 13 nephew

and

Pricilla 19 (no place of birth given) a hawker
Thos 6 brother
Betsy 8 sister
Pake 9      "
Richard 10 brother
Arissa 4 sister

living Lady, St Mary's, Dorset


and

Henry Penfold 40 born Bridgewater, Somerset a licensed hawker
Orean 39 born Ilminster, Somerset
Bessie 19 born Packington, Devon a hawkers assistant
Henry 15 born Exeter, Devon                "               "
Defiance 13 born Dawlish, Devon
John 10 born Brauton, Devon
Vastie 6 born Ilfracombe, Devon
Noah 8 born Packington, Devon
Albert 3 born Ilfracombe, Devon
Leonard 1             "

living Common Moor Lane (Caravans), South Molton, Devon coincidence? I wonder).

and

Robert Penfold 57 born Berkshire a hawker and widower
Harriett 24 born Kilkhampton, Devon    "
Bessie 22 born Truro, Cornwall             "
Rachel 15 born Redruth, Cornwall         "
Charlotte 12 born Helston, Cornwall

listed under persons not in houses but in vans, living Northam, Devon.

For Robert it says on the transcription that he was born in Bute, Scotland but on the page it sayd Berkshire.

On the 1891 for your Thomas it says Hampton, Mid Lothian, (Edinburgh), Scotland but on the census page all it says id Hampton. Do you think maybe its Hampshire?

All of the Penfolds I have listed here have got to be related to your Penfolds as they keep moving further down the west country and some of the names are the same.

I can't find your family in any of the other census', so I'm going to concentrate on the Orchards for the time being, maybe that will give us some clues.

Kate.

ps. also found your William in the 1901 census, presumably you have that entry, if not let me know and I will post it here.
Cavan - FLYNN & NEARY
Donegal - O'DONNELL
Dublin - BRADY, GREEN, NEILL & ST LEGER
Kerry - CRIMEEN, CROWLY & DONOGHUE
Longford - FLYNN, WHELAN & DAVIS
Sligo - FLYNN & HEALY
Wicklow - CLARE, COLEY, CRIMEEN, CUNNIAM, DOYLE, FLYNN, MURPHY, O'BYRNE & SUTTON
Devon, Som, Glam & Mon - BISSETT
Gloucs, Glam & Mon - ROBERTS
Here, Brec & Mon - WATKINS
Mon - ISRAEL, LEWIS, MATTHEWS, MORGAN & PROBERT
Salop & Mon - EVANS
Census info is crown copyright www.nationalarchives.co

Offline buttonmoon

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,050
    • View Profile
Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 04 February 06 13:06 GMT (UK) »
I know the ages do not tally but I guess its too much of a coincidence, plus I only take census info at face value, but I've found this Sophia Orchard living with her family in Old Boy Road, Dulverton, Somerset in a tent! in the 1861 census

James Orchard 37 born Salisbury, Wiltshire a brush and ? maker
Sarah 27 born Sturminster, Dorset
Susan 9 born Tiverton, Devon
Henry 6 born Huntsham, Devon
Sophia 4 born Winkleigh, Devon.

RG9/1606
68
13

also found this entry

Sophia Orchard 44 born Weston Under ?, Gloucestershire a licensed hawker (married) but living on her own at 11 The Island, Midsomer Norton, Somerset.

Kate.
Cavan - FLYNN & NEARY
Donegal - O'DONNELL
Dublin - BRADY, GREEN, NEILL & ST LEGER
Kerry - CRIMEEN, CROWLY & DONOGHUE
Longford - FLYNN, WHELAN & DAVIS
Sligo - FLYNN & HEALY
Wicklow - CLARE, COLEY, CRIMEEN, CUNNIAM, DOYLE, FLYNN, MURPHY, O'BYRNE & SUTTON
Devon, Som, Glam & Mon - BISSETT
Gloucs, Glam & Mon - ROBERTS
Here, Brec & Mon - WATKINS
Mon - ISRAEL, LEWIS, MATTHEWS, MORGAN & PROBERT
Salop & Mon - EVANS
Census info is crown copyright www.nationalarchives.co

Offline liverpool annie

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 13,434
  • Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 23 February 06 01:35 GMT (UK) »
Hi Deb !

You said you'd like to look them up yourself - maybe you can trawl through these!!

1881 Census: Gypsies, Hawkers, and Other Travellers
http://www.nwon.com/pauline/CensusPage6.html
1881 Census:  More Gypsies, Hawkers, Travellers and Entertainers
http://www.nwon.com/pauline/CensusPage7.html
1881 Census:Even More Gypsies, Hawkers, Travellers and Entertainers

1891 Census:Showmen and Other Travellers
http://www.nwon.com/pauline/1891.html

1901 Census: Showmen and Other Travellers
http://www.nwon.com/pauline/1901.html

Annie  :)
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline JAP

  • RootsChat Leaver
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *
  • Posts: 5,034
    • View Profile
Re: thomas penfold married in south molton1866 to sophia orchard
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 12 April 06 07:43 BST (UK) »
Hi Deb,

After the CARNARTON saga, I thought I'd have a look at the PENFOLD one ...

Did you ever get the 1866 marriage certificate of Thomas PENFOLD and Sophia ORCHARD?  It would be great because it should give the names of their fathers and that might help to trace them further.

I tried to find Thomas and Sarah Sophia/Soffia and family before 1891 (where they were very cleverly found under PENFULL) but with no success.

Incidentally, on that 1891 image, the only birthplace given in the family is Hampton for Thomas (no birthplace or occupation for any of the other members of the family).  Someone has subsequently annotated this (in a different hand) Mdx i.e. Middlesex {not Midlothian (Edinburgh) Scotland which a transcriber on a certain site has entered!}.  Whether Middlesex is correct or is just someone's guess I don't know.  There definitely was a parish called Hampton in Middlesex (in the Kingston registration district) but there are also places called Hampton elsewhere.

I had a look on FreeBMD for possible marriages of William's siblings and came across this rather interesting entry.
Christiana PENFOLD, Marriage, Mar qtr 1898, St Austell
And on the same page is a William ORCHARD.

This looked as though it might be William PENFOLD's sister recorded on the 1891 census as Christonanna, 16.

So I checked out the 1901 census and found the following.
1901, Bratton Clovelly, Devon
Northcombe Moors (Caravan)
ORCHARD William, Head, Mar, 31, Licensed Hawker, b Devon Pinhoe
Do Christina, Wife, Mar, 26, b Cornwall Grampound (this is the right age for William PENFOLD's sister)
Do Edmund, Son, 1, b Cornwall Calstock
Do Joseph, Son, 4 months, b Devon Mary Tavy
Do Sarah, Mother, Widow, 64, b Hampshire Sherly
SPARGO Edmund, Mar, Brother-in-law, 30, Licensed Hawker, b Cornwall Stoke Climsland
Do Harriet, Sister, Mar, 34, b Devon Hemyock

Then I looked for William ORCHARD in earlier censuses - hoping it might just lead me back to Sophia ORCHARD (the one who married Thomas PENFOLD in 1866); of course it didn't.

But here are some census details anyway for William ORCHARD's family; it's interesting to see how they move around.

1891, St Cleer, Cornwall.
Fore Down
ORCHARD John, Head, Mar, 55, Licensed Hawker (Gipsy has been added in another hand), b Bristol
Do Sarah, Wife, Mar, 54, b Southampton
Do Harriet, Daur, Single, 30, b Devon Exeter
Do Thomas, Son, S, 26, b Bristol
Do William, Son, S, 22, b Devon Exeter
Do Rachel, Daur, S, 18, b Somerset Widdecombe
Do Sally, Daur, S, 13, b Somerset Williton

1881, Chapel Allerton, Somerset
Killing Lane
ORCHARD John, Head, Mar, 45, Traviling (sic) Hawker, b Somerset Chaffcombe
Do Sarah, Wife, Mar, 44, b Hampshire Southampton
Do Henry, Son, Unmar, 22, Trav Hawker, b Somerset Chaffcombe
Do Harriett, Daur, Unmar, 20, b Devon Culmstock
Do Joseph, Son, Unmar, 18, Trav Hawker, b Devon Culmstock
Do Thomas, Son, Unmar, 16, Trav Hawker, b Somerset Stagursey
Do William, Son, 12, b Somerset Pinhoe
Do Annie Sophia, Niece, 18, b Devon Culmstock
Do John, Nephew, 16, Trav Hawker, b Somerset Pitminster
HOLLAND Rachael, Niece, 7, b Somerset Carhampton
Do Sarah, Niece, 4, b Somerset Bichnoller
PENFUL Percilla, Niece, Unmar, 20, b Dorset Dorcester (PENFUL! - that's interesting)

1871, Crowcombe, Somerset
Crowcombe Red Post
ORCHARD John, Head, Mar, 35, Hawker with Van, b Dorset Kingston
Do Sarah Jane, Wife, Mar, 34, b Dorset Kingston
Do Henry, Son, 14, b Somerset Chard 
Do Harriett, Daur, 10, b Devon H??? (Hanwel, Hamuel?)
Do Joseph, Son, 8, Somerset Wellington
Do Thomas, Son, 6, Somerset Crowcombe
Do William, Son, 2, Devon H???

Unfortunately I didn't find John, Sarah or Henry in 1861; nor John in 1851 ...

JAP