Author Topic: Longshot! - marriage William Armstrong/Helen Riddle 1812, Kelso  (Read 4205 times)

Offline Cadoret

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Longshot! - marriage William Armstrong/Helen Riddle 1812, Kelso
« on: Wednesday 01 March 06 12:26 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

I've traced my mum's paternal side back to my ggg grandparents' marriage in 1812 thanks to my grandfather's entries in our family bible - and confirmed the line thanks to a couple of kind RootsChat members! - but can't find any details further back than this. I know that the next stage is to order the marriage cert, but for various reasons I can't do this at the moment.

I know that it's a long shot, but does anyone have any information about William or Helen? I'm interested in parentage, but also any info re their children would be good. It's likely that their son William was a character nicknamed 'Sorbie Trees' was quite well known in the Castleton area (owned sorbietrees farm), as he was murdered - oops, I should simply say shot dead, as the guy was aquitted - by a reverend minister in 1851.

From the 1841 census William snr was a farmer in Heiton near Kelso, and his son Robert was my gg grandfather who also went into farming (farm steward at Easter Ulston farm, Jedburgh), so obviously any info re him or his wife Isabella Cairns would be ace.

Here's William & Helen's family details;

Name                     Where Born                          Born            Notes
William Armstrong   Roxburghshire    ?                                 Died 21/12/1896
Helen Riddle      ?                                                              Died "in childbed September 1839"
Margaret Smith        Roxburghshire    ?                                  Second marriage, 22/1/1841
William                                                          17th July 1813   
Isabella                                                 17th March 1815   
John                                                           27th May 1817   
Davis                                                           21st April 1819   
Agnes                                                         4th April 1821   "Died aged of 3 years"
Mary                                                           5th March 1823   
Robert                      Roxburghshire              27th February 1825   
Peter                       Roxburghshire               5th August 1927   
Adam                      Yetholm, Roxburghshire    25th December 1829   
Agnes                      Roxburghshire              26th July 1831   

Any help or advice greatly appreciated!

Graeme
LONDON
Burrell, Whitechapel/Stepney
Sargent/Sargeant, Stepney/Mile End/Lexden (Essex); Press, Bethnal Green; Lombard
SUFFOLK
Flynn/Stewart/Metcalf, Bury St Edmunds
ROXBURGH
Armstrong, Yetholm/Heiton/Castleton
Riddle/Riddell/Riddel/Broomfield/McLeod/Fairbairn/Winnarsford/Whitherspels/Winnerspoons/Turnbull/Henderson/Anderson
Hall, Castleton; Tait, Eckford; Scott, Roberton; Hardie, Kelso
WIGTOWN
McGaw, Kirkmaiden/Kirkinner; Maxwell/Boyd, Kirkmaiden; McKeand, Kirkinner
Flynn/Stewart/McWhirter/Kimmin

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Offline audrey

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Re: Longshot! - marriage William Armstrong/Helen Riddle 1812, Kelso
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 01 March 06 12:38 GMT (UK) »
ARMSTRONG, William   Bir   1813   Scot   Roxb   Yethol
Fa:   William ARMSTRONG
Mo:   Helen RIDDLE
ARMSTRONG, Isabella   Bir   1815   Scot   Roxb   Yethol
Fa:   William ARMSTRONG
Mo:   Helen RIDDLE
ARMSTRONG, John   Bir   1817   Scot   Roxb   Yethol
Fa:   William ARMSTRONG
Mo:   Helen RIDDLE
ARMSTRONG, David   Bir   1819   Scot   Roxb   Yethol
Fa:   William ARMSTRONG
Mo:   Helen RIDDLE
ARMSTRONG, Mary   Bir   1823   Scot   Roxb   Yethol
Fa:   William ARMSTRONG
Mo:   Helen RIDDLE
ARMSTRONG, Robert   Bir   1825   Scot   Roxb   Yethol
Fa:   William ARMSTRONG
Mo:   Helen RIDDLE
ARMSTRONG, Peter   Bir   1827   Scot   Roxb   Yethol
Fa:   William ARMSTRONG
Mo:   Helen RIDDELL
these details come from my owen tree


audrey

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Offline audrey

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Re: Longshot! - marriage William Armstrong/Helen Riddle 1812, Kelso
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 01 March 06 13:21 GMT (UK) »
William Armstrong  married
 Hellen Riddell
1/9/1812 at Kelso Rox.

audrey

Offline Cadoret

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Re: Longshot! - marriage William Armstrong/Helen Riddle 1812, Kelso
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 01 March 06 15:11 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Audrey,

My mistake - I already knew that but forgot to put it in the post!

Regards, Graeme
LONDON
Burrell, Whitechapel/Stepney
Sargent/Sargeant, Stepney/Mile End/Lexden (Essex); Press, Bethnal Green; Lombard
SUFFOLK
Flynn/Stewart/Metcalf, Bury St Edmunds
ROXBURGH
Armstrong, Yetholm/Heiton/Castleton
Riddle/Riddell/Riddel/Broomfield/McLeod/Fairbairn/Winnarsford/Whitherspels/Winnerspoons/Turnbull/Henderson/Anderson
Hall, Castleton; Tait, Eckford; Scott, Roberton; Hardie, Kelso
WIGTOWN
McGaw, Kirkmaiden/Kirkinner; Maxwell/Boyd, Kirkmaiden; McKeand, Kirkinner
Flynn/Stewart/McWhirter/Kimmin

Offline runner

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Re: Longshot! - marriage William Armstrong/Helen Riddle 1812, Kelso
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 01 March 06 15:25 GMT (UK) »
Hi Graeme

In your initial post you said the next step was to order the 'marriage certificate'. I think you might be disappointed by the information received.
Statutory records only started in 1855. Prior to that the only records of births and marriages were the Old Parochial records (OPR)
Marriages were often not recorded. The intention to marry was shown by the posting of Banns which were read out in church on three occasions. If the groom was from another parish they would be read in his parish too which explains why the IGI records sometimes make it appear as though they married twice in different places.
In reality it was possible that the wedding did not take place at all and it probably was not on any of the dates quoted.
Some OPR were more detailed than others so you might be in luck  - some have not survived the years so there might be no trail left to follow. then you start to search through graveyards and M.I. lists
Good luck with the search

Russell
1941-2016
Oman in Caithness, Reside in Renfrewshire,
Roan or Rowan Kirkcudbrightshire/Ayrshire
Watsons in Kilrenny and Mortons in Edinburgh.

Offline Ann12

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Re: Longshot! - marriage William Armstrong/Helen Riddle 1812, Kelso
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 01 March 06 15:42 GMT (UK) »
Thank you Russell, you have cleared up my confusion as to why my gggg grandfather's marriage in 1786 was entered twice in the IGI!! He was born (we think) in Manuden but was married in Birchanger (both in Essex).

Anna :)

PS  Sorry to go off topic!!
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk<br /><br />names: <br />Josolyne - Essex & Herts, <br />Wainwright - Hamps & London, <br />Kentish - Rotherhithe, London & Kent, <br />Herbert - Seaford, Sussex - London & Glous
Mumford - Essex, Birchanger
Sims-Miles - London & Hertfordshire
Cooper - Great Witley and London (Holborn)
Greengrass - Kent & London

Offline Cadoret

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Re: Longshot! - marriage William Armstrong/Helen Riddle 1812, Kelso
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 01 March 06 18:12 GMT (UK) »
Thanks also, Russell; I knew about the change in 1855... when I said 'order' I should have said 'try to obtain' the marriage certificate! But what you say about the banns clarifies what another RootsWeb member told me - the person who I suspect is my gg uncle (the 'Sorbie Trees' character) seemed to have been married twice, 10 days apart in Kelso & Castleton... but then the double banns thing this would 'prove' a link between my gg grandfather who lived in Heiton near Kelso and William's spouse who came from Newcastleton. But there again it seems that Sorbie Trees' farm was his 'paternal estate', which would have made my ggg grandfather the owner.... only documentation will decide this.

So before I try for a marriage cert, it would be better to try & get the birth certs. of gg grandfather Robert and his brother William - and I've also traced the will of the 'Sorbie Trees' guy, it's available for printout, and would prove/disprove if he's my gg uncle... if he was, I'd love to know what happened to 'his' 4416 acre farm, as he died intestate! It's a fascinating story about how he died - you can read about it at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/CUMBERLAND/2004-05/1084569791

regards, Graeme
LONDON
Burrell, Whitechapel/Stepney
Sargent/Sargeant, Stepney/Mile End/Lexden (Essex); Press, Bethnal Green; Lombard
SUFFOLK
Flynn/Stewart/Metcalf, Bury St Edmunds
ROXBURGH
Armstrong, Yetholm/Heiton/Castleton
Riddle/Riddell/Riddel/Broomfield/McLeod/Fairbairn/Winnarsford/Whitherspels/Winnerspoons/Turnbull/Henderson/Anderson
Hall, Castleton; Tait, Eckford; Scott, Roberton; Hardie, Kelso
WIGTOWN
McGaw, Kirkmaiden/Kirkinner; Maxwell/Boyd, Kirkmaiden; McKeand, Kirkinner
Flynn/Stewart/McWhirter/Kimmin

Offline runner

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Re: Longshot! - marriage William Armstrong/Helen Riddle 1812, Kelso
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 01 March 06 20:25 GMT (UK) »
Hi Graeme

Under Scots law when someone died intestate there were strict rules about how the estate would be divided up. You may find out quite a bit about the whole family that way.
I downloaded a will from the Pringle estate in Torwoodlee (near Galashiels) and learned nothing as he had already divvied up most of his money in previous years.

Dispute over money and land would have been dealt with by the Commissariot Court in Hawick or one of the other larger towns so look there too.

Happy hunting

Russell
1941-2016
Oman in Caithness, Reside in Renfrewshire,
Roan or Rowan Kirkcudbrightshire/Ayrshire
Watsons in Kilrenny and Mortons in Edinburgh.

Offline audrey

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Re: Longshot! - marriage William Armstrong/Helen Riddle 1812, Kelso
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 02 March 06 09:31 GMT (UK) »
Graeme
If you do manage to come up with anything on the Riddell side please keep me in mind
Margaret Riddell b 6/9/1793 Hawick
father Walter Riddell
 mother Janet Hamilton
I have my dough ts about this one as I have never had a Walter but had loads of Janet's but its the best I have come up with to date

audrey