Author Topic: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon  (Read 4990 times)

Offline D R Spencer

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1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
« on: Friday 01 October 04 20:21 BST (UK) »
Greetings - I am a new member and this is my first post, so forgive me if I'm completely lost.

My G-G-Grandfather, Joseph Dutton, was born 16 Feb 1840 at Minshull Vernon (according to Cheshire Records Office - Nantwich Reg. District), and a family bible indicates that he was born in Winsford, Middlewich, so his family lived somewhere in that general area.

His parents were Joseph and Rebecca (Preston) Dutton.  If anybody has access to an index or census where you might find info on the family, I'd greatly appreciate any info on his parents (such as ages/est. years of birth).  IGI indicates that a Joseph Dutton and Rebecca Preston married in Middlewich on 12 Jul 1819, and this could be his parents, but finding the family in the census would tell me if his parents were old enough to have been married 21 years before his birth.  Info about siblings would also be appreciated.

I assumed with his name being the same as his fathers that he was a first son, but I suppose it's possible that an earlier son named Joseph died and they reused the name, or perhaps he only had older sisters, explaining why he may have been born 21 years after his parents married.

Joseph and his wife (Sarah Bates of Lincolnshire) married in Brotton Church (North Riding of Yorkshire) in 1872, and brought their family to the U.S. about 1883 (along with Sarah's mother Mary Stacey-Bates, Sarahs sister Isabella Bates-Jefferson & her family, and Sarahs brother Richard Bates and his family).

A cousin of mine here in the U.S. received a letter around 1935 or so stating that he was the next male in the line of decent, and asking if he'd like to return to England to be properly educated to take over the family manor (it was in the posession of three Ladies Dutton), but he wasn't interested.  That's the last contact we know of with our Dutton relatives in Cheshire.

Would be great to find some cousins from across the sea!
Dutton/Preston of Minshull Vernon, Cheshire
Bates/Stacey/Stanford of Little Downham, Cambridge
Bates/Harley of Welney, Norfolk

Offline peterbennett

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Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 02 October 04 16:56 BST (UK) »
Hi
    Welcome
I have looked at your post and wonder if you have the 1881  and the 1871 census details as I notice you have not asked for them, if so can you post the details of the 71 as a reply on this link.
  Also I notice that a letter was received, was there a senders address on it if yes can you post it as well.
  I have searched the 1851 census and found only one Joseph Dutton born in Minshall Vernon age 11 a farm servant not living with parents, when you received his birth details from the Cheshire RO did it give details of parents.

regards

peterbennett
All census look up transcriptions are Crown Copyright<br />www.NationalArchives.gov.uk <br />Cheshire BMD  www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/ <br />Cheshire Wills database http://www.cheshire.gov.uk/recordoffice/wills/Search.htm<br />Cheshire family history society  www.fhsc.org.uk/<br />Cheshire Records Office http://www.cheshire.gov.uk/Recordoffice/aboutus/recoffcontact.tm<br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Bennett/,Whaley,Chesh/Lancs, Brindley Staffs

Offline D R Spencer

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Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 02 October 04 21:04 BST (UK) »
Joseph Dutton (b. 16 Feb 1840 in Minshull Vernon) was the son of Joseph Dutton and Rebecca Preston, and the certificate only indicates that his father Joseph Dutton was a labourer.

Regarding the letter, unfortunately it was never kept.  My cousin regrets this as his daughter has been trying to dig up this genealogy for years, as have I.  I've had much more success than her, but we share all our info with each other.  I don't quite understand the whole situation, as it would seem with the father being a labourer, I  wouldn't imagine he would have some sort of estate for anybody to inherit or take over.  But this cousin of mine is still alive (age 76) and I have no reason to doubt the story.

I didn't ask for 1871 as I figured I'd need to start with 1841/51/61 and move forward.  I'm uncertain when Joseph Dutton (father) and his wife Rebecca passed away.  If they are the individuals who married in 1819, then they were probably born 1790s-1800 and are possibly not around in the 1881 census.  (1881 census has no Jos Duttons b. between 1795 and 1805, and only one Rebecca Dutton born 1803 but it's not her)  I figured if I could find them in 1841, etc. I'd have an idea of how old they are so I can skim death records for Cheshire for any possible matches.  Also uncertain of Rebeccas place of birth, as somebody indicated on the US census that Josephs father was born in England and mother born in Scotland.  But I've learned over the years to use census info as a starting point, but not to accept it as fact (people on both sides of the sea have always been a bit mistrusting of the government wanting to know their business, and census info is only as good as the memory/ knowledge of the person supplying the info to the census taker).

Joseph Dutton (the son) served in the 7th Regiment of Hussey from 20 Jul 1867 until 18 July 1868, enlisting in London and being discharged at Canterbury.  Sometime in the next couple of years he found himself in the North Riding of Yorkshire, where he married Sarah Bates on the 26th of August 1872.  I've found him and the other Bates families in 1881, and they began emmigrating to the USA shortly after, with Joseph & his family arriving in New York on the 3rd of May 1883.  I don't have access to the 1871 census for the North Riding but I'd bet they are all there. (The Bates family originated in Cambridge, moved through Lincolnshire, then settled in the North Riding before some of them came to the US)

It's interesting that you found a Jos Dutton age 11 living away from his parents.  What town/village was the farm where he was working?  Did you not see a Joseph Dutton with a wife Rebecca in 1851?  Perhaps they were both deceased already?

Thank you for your assistance.

D R Spencer
Dutton/Preston of Minshull Vernon, Cheshire
Bates/Stacey/Stanford of Little Downham, Cambridge
Bates/Harley of Welney, Norfolk


Offline peterbennett

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Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 03 October 04 15:26 BST (UK) »
Hi
   The Joseph Dutton I found was born in Minshall Vernon, the village he was working in was close by and called Church Vernon, there were no likely Dutton family living in the area these two villages.
There was no J.D.snr or Rebecca shown anywhere on the Middlewich/Northwich district.
Unfortunately the 1841 census is not indexed and very difficult to read, so although not finding the family in the above area  it does not mean they were not there.
As you say a son of the gentry would not be a ag/labourer so is it possible that you are starting with the wrong JD ? Does the marriage certificate of Joseph and Sarah Bates confirm the age, and fathers name and occupation ?
I will see what can be found in the 1881 census and backwards.
regards

peterbennett
All census look up transcriptions are Crown Copyright<br />www.NationalArchives.gov.uk <br />Cheshire BMD  www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/ <br />Cheshire Wills database http://www.cheshire.gov.uk/recordoffice/wills/Search.htm<br />Cheshire family history society  www.fhsc.org.uk/<br />Cheshire Records Office http://www.cheshire.gov.uk/Recordoffice/aboutus/recoffcontact.tm<br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------<br />Bennett/,Whaley,Chesh/Lancs, Brindley Staffs

Offline D R Spencer

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Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 03 October 04 20:08 BST (UK) »
I believe it's the correct Joseph Dutton.  A family bible indicated he was born 16 Feb 1840, and the certificate agrees with that.  What are the odds that there would be two Joseph Duttons born somewhere in Cheshire on the same day both having a father named Joseph?  The only difference between the bible and the certificate is that the bible indicated he was born in Winsford, Middlewich - I assumed the family lived near there when he was younger and he believed he was born in Winsford - or perhaps it was the nearest large town/city and it was his point of reference.

The CheshireBMD website, which they claim has complete records, only shows 2 Joseph Duttons born in 1840, both registered in the Nantwich district.  When I sent off to the Record Office for his certificate, I sent the reference numbers for both records, along with Josephs alleged birthdate and the fact that his fathers name was Joseph, and I asked for the appropriate record.  I also stated that if by some chance both Josephs had a father named Joseph, I would like to have copies of both records (and authorized payment as such) so that I could do more research to determine which was the correct Joseph.  They only sent me the one record, so I assume the other Joseph did not have a father named Joseph.

I don't actually have a copy of Joseph and Sarah's marriage record, the family bible indicated the date and place of the marriage, and somebody in North Riding went to the RO and looked it up for me many years ago (in response to something I posted in a local paper/bulletin).  According to what she wrote me, Joseph was a miner, which matches the 1881 census, and his father Joseph was a labourer, which matches the birth record.  There is a discrepency on the marriage record regarding Sarah, but I've moved past that and found some of Sarah's ancestry back to her grandparents on her fathers side.

Thank you once again for the information, and for taking the time to help me with this endeavour.

D R Spencer
Dutton/Preston of Minshull Vernon, Cheshire
Bates/Stacey/Stanford of Little Downham, Cambridge
Bates/Harley of Welney, Norfolk

Offline D R Spencer

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Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 01 September 10 20:01 BST (UK) »
In case anybody comes across this while searching, this mystery has been solved.  If you are related, or have any question, feel free to contact me or post here.
Dutton/Preston of Minshull Vernon, Cheshire
Bates/Stacey/Stanford of Little Downham, Cambridge
Bates/Harley of Welney, Norfolk

Offline Cthomas

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Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
« Reply #6 on: Friday 17 December 10 18:00 GMT (UK) »
Hi 

I saw your post re Joseph and Rebecca Dutton (Preston) and would be interested to hear how the mystery was solved. My great great great grandfather was William Dutton, brother of your Joseph (born 1840) and son of Joseph and Rebecca Preston born 1799. Rebecca appeared on the 1841 census but no Joseph (possibly he was already dead). Certainly he was by 1846 as she then remarried Edward Edmunds - she appears as his wife on the 1851 census. By 1861 she is widowed again and sometime later marries John Palin before dying in 1867. Possibly you may know all this, but I have not been able to find out what happened to Joseph Dutton senior, so I am hoping you might be able to help with this. From some research carried out by someone else I think he  was probably born in Warmingham in 1797. If he died it would have to have been post 1840 as he was named as the father on "Joseph Dutton 1840"'s birth certificate. He doesn't appear in the 1841 census either. I tried to get hold of a death certificate for him, but there doesn't appear to be one that matches him (in Cheshire anyway). If you are able to help at all, I would be very interested to hear from you. Thank you

Cthomas

Offline D R Spencer

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Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 18 December 10 01:15 GMT (UK) »
Cthomas,
I visited the Cheshire Family History research room at the Crewe library and did some research this past summer while visiting England.  With the help of the researchers there, we found Josephs death recorded in the parish register for St. Michael and All Angels.  He was buried 10 May 1840, which is exactly 9 months before young Joseph was born (10 Feb 1841), so Rebecca must have just gotten pregnant when he was killed.  There was a note in the parish register next to Josephs name that said "G.J.R.W.", which the researchers said most likely meant Great Junction Rail Works.
I recall seeing something on ancestry.com where somebody had claimed that they found the parents of Joseph (and it may have been the record you are referring to for Joseph of Warmingham), but I was able to disprove that particular claim in a matter of minutes.  As of now, I have no information on Josephs exact birth date, but he is listed as 46 years old when he died in May 1840, giving approximate birth between June 1793 and May 1794.  I also do not know of his burial location.  St. Peters Leighton cum Minshull Vernon wasn't established yet, nor was the town cemetery in Middlewich.  I haven't been able to find any resource to tell where earlier burials from St. Michael and All Angles would be prior to the cemetery in Middlewich opening.
I also do not know where Rebecca Preston-Dutton-Edmunds-Palin is buried.  She may be buried in the St. Peters churchyard, where William and Edward and their wives and other family members are buried, but at the time that I was there I had not yet known about Rebeccas third marriage to a Palin, so I wasn't looking for the burial of a Rebecca Palin.
Like you, I also searched for a death certificate for Joseph, and while in Crewe I went to the record office just up the street from the library.  The only Joseph that had a death recorded at that time was a 10 year old boy.  So it may be that his death wasn't officially recorded with the registrar.
Dutton/Preston of Minshull Vernon, Cheshire
Bates/Stacey/Stanford of Little Downham, Cambridge
Bates/Harley of Welney, Norfolk

Offline Cthomas

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Re: 1841/1851/1861 Minshull Vernon
« Reply #8 on: Monday 20 December 10 17:34 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for your reply and information which is very interesting. However I am curious as to how you were able to disprove that our Joseph Dutton was not the same "Joseph Dutton born 1797 in Warmingham" as this seemed quite likely - I received the information via someone on Ancestry.com who had found the information in the Cheshire records office (although I am not sure how he could be certain that it was the correct Joseph). If as you say Joseph was 46 when he died in May 1840, that would certainly mean he was born 1793/4 rather than 1797. The suggestion that he died in a railway accident is interesting also.

As for Rebecca (Palin) it is possible as you say that she was buried at St Peters, Minshull Vernon. I was up there last November (at a family funeral) but at that point didn't know she ended up as a Palin either, so was only looking for a Rebecca Dutton. However my father still lives in Cheshire, so I will ask him to check that out next time he is in the area. I did see some other Dutton graves though, including my ggg grandfather William Dutton's.