1851 Census Norwich

[JerryWymer]

I'm pretty certain some members of the extended family viewed Bloom and Knights as interchangeable surnames.

Well the plot would appear to thicken.  What you say about the use of the surnames could be correct.  However in a previous post you also said: "the baptism register for St George Colegate shows a baptism of Emily, daughter of Francis and Emily Knights, born 9 September 1846, baptised 6 June 1847.  I may be slandering my ancestors, but I have a suspicion that Emily's stepfather Stephen may be the father of her children".

If you go to this link here: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~tinstaafl/Church_Pages/norwich_st_martin_at_oak4.htm  you will find the baptism record for St Martins Oak:  Same birth date and baptism day but the father is Stephen Knights!  The same person baptised in two different churches on the same day? 

My theory is one of two things.  Not only did Stephen Bloom interchange surnames but could also sometimes refer to his self by his middle name Francis.  Alternatively, on this thread where you said "Stephen Bloom was her stepfather (father in law in the 1851 census)" this is contradictory.  Does the census define him as the father in law?  If it does then my other theory is that his son Francis Stephen could have been the father.  That said, Francis married Elizabeth Bowhill of Wymondham around 1848, but maybe he fathered one or more children with Emily Knights but left her in the lurch to marry Elizabeth and left his father to support her and the children.

What other info do you have on the other children such as Charles Knights, and are you sure he is the same one listed in the 1841 census as Charles Bloom?

[aelf]

I have of course thickened the plot by being thick myself.  The St martin at Oak entry is the correct one, my information was corrupted by my own carelessness when trying to make sense of the convoltions in this part of the family.

The 1851 census names Stephen Bloom as head of the household and Emily as his daughter; it would be possible to create a scenario which involved Emily being Stephen's actual daughter and marrying a Knights, who then avoids all church and state records but manages to beget children at intervals, but I think by far the greater probability is that daughter is used for daughter-in-law.  This is not uncommon in the census - it happened in the 1901 census for my grandmother Nellie Ann Knights, who appears with her brother Charles Joseph with the surname Collins after the early death of her father Charles John Knights - she is described as the daughter of Frederick Collins, actually her step-father.  The children in 1851 are all named as grandchildren of Stephen Bloom but 2 of the girls, Emily and Elizabeth, are named as Emily's daughters in 1861. 
I am reasonably certain of the identity of Cahrles despite his age as given in 1851; as you point out, Stephen Bloom's age at death doesn't fit with his age according to the census, and Charles "Bloom"'s age in 1841 matches the Charles Knights who appears in the censuses from '61 to '91.
If faced with a choice, Emily's stepfather would be marginally preferable as the father of her children, rather than her half brother Francis.  Not that this rules it out.
Incidentally, I'm not certain of the children were registered - can't see much sign of them on FreeBMD.
My refernce to name changing applies particularly to the Samuel Bloom who appears in the 1841 census aged 20, but it's even more conjectural than the rest, so I won't burden you with it at the moment.

[Heatherz]

I have an interest in this thread. I have a Samuel Knights who has changed his name to Bloom, lived in Norwich.  Many of the first names that are mentioned in this thread are familiar. He had a son Stephen Francis Bloom.  My Samuel Knights was a horse hair weaver.
Love to hear from anybody looking at this line.

[JerryWymer]

I have an interest in this thread. I have a Samuel Knights who has changed his name to Bloom, lived in Norwich.  Many of the first names that are mentioned in this thread are familiar. He had a son Stephen Francis Bloom.  My Samuel Knights was a horse hair weaver.
Love to hear from anybody looking at this line.

Heather,

They are almost certainly my ancestors.  A Stephen Francis Bloom (b1779) was my great, great, great grandfather, although I have since found out he was the bastard child of a Stephen Francis and Elizabeth Broom or Brume, which muddy's the waters further!  On the baptism record the mother is listed as Brume and on the bastardy bond as Broom, so he took his father's surname as his middle name and his mother's, albeit slightly changed, as his surname.  Unless of course the Br in the records should have been Bl, but with two instances of that I feel it is unlikely.

Now as I understand it, Stephen Francis Bloom married Lydia Knights, although I believe he had been married before but to date I have found no record of that.  She definitely had been and appeared to have had two children from that first marriage, who I think were Emily and Samuel, in which case Stephen Francis Bloom is not actually related to Samuel but was his stepdad.  Lydia Knights died in childbirth and from what I gather Emily and possibly Samuel continued living with their stepfather, Stephen Francis Bloom.  In fact Emily lived with him for the rest of his life, and I am almost certain that they became an item as the census records then start to list the other younger children after his wife's death, which I believe to be the offspring of Stephen Francis Bloom and Emily Knights.

Also somewhere in the information that I have researched to date is a listing of a Samuel Knights Bloom a victualer in Norwich, which must certainly be he, the son of Lydia Knights and John Knights, and the stepson of Stephen Francis Bloom.  I think he is the one who was a weaver (as was the family tradition) and in later life became a victualer. 

They appeared to interchange the names with Stephen almost certainly fathering Emily's children- one baptism record puts the father as Stephen Knights although she never married.

From the information you have posted it would appear that Samuel Knights not only elected to take his stepfather's surname but then when he had his only son he then chose to name him after his stepfather, just to confuse us all further!

I have heaps more information that I can dig out if you want it.

You can also check what I have on line so far, here:

http://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-69036981/bloom?treeMode=immersive


Jerry   

[Heatherz]

I can't see a firm connection but here is some of my information. Samuel Knights born c.1826 Hoxne, SUffolk (place of birth has remained constant ), married  Charlotte  and had two children. he also had an affair with a girl living at his house, Mary Ann Pawsey,  and produced an illegitimate son, Samuel Knights Pawsey born 1861. 1861 census he is living with Charlotte, All census there after he is living with Mary Ann and has changed his name to Bloom. The name Bloom does not change from here. No record of marriage for Sam and mary ann ever found. The children form Samuel Knights (now Bloom) are as follows, Samuel b 1861, Angelina b 1865, William Stephen b 1868, Francis john b 1869, Elizabeth b 1875, Lydia Elizabeth b 1877, Henry Arthur b 1881, May Ella b 1886.

Not sure if there is a connection but this whole chat thread caught my attention with the Knights Bloom thread.
Kind regards
Frances

[JerryWymer]

This could possibly be a different family.  The information I have is that 6 June 1821, Stephen Francis Bloom married Lydia Knights at St George Colegate Church, Norwich. 

The 1841 census lists Samuel Bloom (aged 20) as living in Pitt Street with Stephen Francis Bloom, Emily (25yo) and the four younger children.  Although his age is probably incorrect, it would put Samuel's birth date at circa 1821, the year Stephen Francis Bloom married Lydia Knights, but I think he might have been a bit older and possibly the son from Lydia's marriage to John Knights.  However it could be that he is the son of Stephen Francis Bloom and Lydia Knights, I've yet to discover anymore on this.  If he is the latter then he is a directly related ancestor.

Other info that I have is from Kelly’s 1879 directory.  It lists Francis S Bloom (son of Stephen Francis) living in Pitt Street and Mrs Bloom, 19 Pitt Street.  Presumably husband and wife, but no more info other than that.  It also lists a beer retailer at St Mary’s Churchyard, listed as ‘Samuel Knight Bloom’ who by then, assuming it is the same one would be about 60.

If all the info we have is correct, then Samuel was still fathering children at around this age.  This isn't that unlikely given that I think his father (or stepfather) Stephen Francis was possibly still fathering kids with his stepdaughter until his mid sixties!

If you have any more info on Samuel, it would be interesting to know if it ties up with the one listed above as the victualer.  I can't imagine there can be too many with the name ‘Samuel Knight Bloom’ so there is a strong chance it is the same person.

Jerry 

[aelf]

I shall have to lie down in a darkened room before I get to the bottom of this, but as far as I can see the children of Samuel and Mary Ann Pawsey appear in the censuses as Bloom but are in the FreeBMD birth index as Knights.
Incidentally I make Samuel's birth in Hoxne as around 1816 rather than 1826 according to the census entries.

[Heatherz]

I think that until I can find out more about my first Samuel Knights, then I have probably hit a brick wall. But it is strange about the knights Bloom name interchange all the same.

happy researching 

[aelf]

I don't know about a brick wall, it's more like a heap of rubble.

A couple of things I've come across:

The marriage of Samuel Knights (soon to be Bloom) and Mary Pawsey was in the 3rd quarter of 1862 in the Stow district according to FreeBMD.  Mary Ann's surname appears as Parsey.

And I found another child of Emily Knights (assuming she's the same one) - Martha born 2 Jan 1837, baptised 15 Jan 1837 at St Martin at Palace and buried 27 Feb 1837.  The mother is a spinster.

I hate to add another possible surname to the mixture, but Samuel Knight/Bloom from Hoxne appears as Samuel Cooper Knights at his first marriage.