1841 census Sackville street

[Valda]

Hi

Being colleagues with and even friends to people of other denominations (and today other faiths) is not the same as marrying them and accepting the rites and practices of their church for both yourself and your potential children. Historically marrying outside your church as far as Quakers and probably Catholics were concerned meant leaving it.

'It is quite clear from reading the works of early Friends that they did not identify with the Protestant movement. They considered the Protestant churches of their day, as well as the Roman Catholics, to be apostate'

http://www.quakerinfo.com/quakprot.shtml


Regards

Valda

[Sire Keene]

No, I would suppose that the Keenes of South Audley Street and Mr Keene of Vale Place, assuming that they were cousins, had gone their separate ways in the matter of religion. Catholics at this period did frequently marry Protestants, and in England were not subject to the Tridentine requirement of bringing up all their children as Catholics (the custom being that the children followed the religion of the parent of the same sex). From what you say the Quakers were more exclusive.

[Daisypetal]

Hi,

Regarding the death of John KEENE in Marylebone Jun Q 1839 ( replies 3 & 4), 'London, England, Deaths and Burials, 1813-1980' has this record,

John KEENE
Abode:  Castle Street East
Burial:  30 May 1839
Age: 47
Parish: St Marylebone
Borough: Westminster


There is also this death,

Jane KEAN
Burial:  12 Nov 1841
Abode:  Castle Street East
Age: 48
Parish: St Marylebone
Borough: Westminster


I wonder if she is John's wife


Regards,
Daisy

[Sire Keene]

This John Keene is evidently of a different family, perhaps the one about whom your correspondent was enquiring before "Cora" and I changed the subject to the Keenes of South Audley Street. I gave details of the John Keene who was my great-great-great-uncle in an earlier post. Researchers will evidently need to pick their way between two contemporary London families of similar characteristics.

[Cora2]

Valda
Hi, in reply to yours of June 10 /10

"If the family were influential Catholics and Frances (born circa 1816-1819) was a daughter why would she marry in an Anglican church in 1838?
eat-uncle in an earlier post. Researchers will evidently need to pick their way between two contemporary London families of similar characteristics."

Until 1838 all formal marriages in the UK (including those between those of the Catholic faith) were required to be held in an Anglican Church.

[Valda]

Hi

Between the 1754 Marriage Act and the start of civil registration 1st July 1837, all non-conformist marriages (except Quaker) to be legal had to take place in an Anglican church. This marriage took place in 1838 and so could legally take place in a non-conformist church, a church not conforming to the Anglican rites, which included obviously Catholic churches. While the vicar in an Anglican church acted as both the person holding the religious ceremony and the registrar, in non-conformist churches for the marriage to be legal after 1st July 1837 the registrar also had to be present to register the marriage.

So the question still stands as in 1838 Catholic marriages were perfectly legal.


Regards

Valda

[Sire Keene]

Can Cora, newly returned to this conversation, supply any more information about the Keenes of South Audley Street?

It seems clear that the Frances Keene whose marriage in 1838 is under discussion was not a member of this family.

Actually, my understanding is that the requirement for the marriages of Catholics (I don't know about other faiths) to take place in C of E churches was lifted in 1835, independently of the beginning of civil registration.

[Valda]

Hi

Since the 1754 Marriage Act by definition was statutory it would require an amendment to the Act or a new law to go through parliament to change the 1754 Act. The laws which did change the 1754 Act went through parliament in 1836 and came into law in 1837.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/actind.htm

Catholics did make illegal marriages before 1837 some marrying in their own churches and some marrying in both. Only the marriage in the Anglican church would be legal. Without that marriage children of the union in the eyes of the state would be illegitimate.

The Catholic Marriage Index

'Many eighteenth-century London Catholics married solely according to Catholic rites and the Catholic registers indexed are the only source of such unions. After Hardwicke's Marriage Act it became customary for Catholics to undergo separate Church of England (or after 1837, civil) and Catholic ceremonies and the details of both events can be of great utility. '

http://www.prtsoc.org.uk/catholicmarriage_intro.php


Regards

Valda

[Sire Keene]

Thank you. My information about 1835 was taken from Monsignor Bernard Ward's The Sequel to Catholic Emancipation, but in view of what you say it must be a loose dating.

For Catholics a marriage in their own church was sacramentally necessary, and they (including the Keenes) therefore went through a ceremony in both churches. The one in the Catholic church was not "illegal" but simply not legally valid.