Author Topic: Looking for info on Thomas Sayers - Boxer  (Read 39503 times)

Offline Iain08

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Re: Looking for info on Thomas Sayers - Boxer
« Reply #27 on: Friday 12 February 10 10:44 GMT (UK) »
Just a brief note for billyboy, whose contributions I've found most interesting.

As well as Lloyd and Wright, a very short book on Tom Sayers appeared in 1973. This is The Life of Tom Sayers by Tom Langley. Long out of print, but the British Library does have a copy, I think. It contains a lot of useful information, but as Langley doesn't quote his sources, I couldn't follow it up as I would have liked.

The identity of Peter Sayers really is a problem. I've discussed it with Roy (above), but it's very hard to get at the truth. It is in fact possible that Peter was Tom's illegitimate son, but I think it's odds against. It would need a DNA test to establish the truth.

At the risk of seeming to blow my own trumpet, I'd say to those interested in reading my book, that where I differ from Lloyd and Wright, it's safer to trust me. The reason is that I was able to use their research as a starting point, trying to verify where I could. Without them, my task would have been much harder.

Offline billyboy1

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Re: Looking for info on Thomas Sayers - Boxer
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 13 February 10 21:31 GMT (UK) »
Iain, having now had the chance to dip into your book, from what I have read so far I can agree that it is a more reliable account than the previous works and the quotation of sources is a great benefit for those that want to research further.  An excellent job, well done and thanks.  I will contact you off line as I have a copy of an old photograph that you might find interesting.

Offline Dan The Man

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Re: Looking for info on Thomas Sayers - Boxer
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 24 April 10 14:39 BST (UK) »
I'm 10 and this guy is my relative.  My grandma had a family tree at some point but she lost it.  So I'm definitely his relative. ;D

Offline ScottH

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Re: Looking for info on Thomas Sayers - Boxer
« Reply #30 on: Monday 18 April 11 21:13 BST (UK) »
I found this thread through a Google search. I'm researching the Sayers family of someone who was always told he was related to Tom Sayers.

His great grandfather was Charles Sayers b 1889 d 1950. His parents were Charles Sayers b 1866 and Elizabeth Wastell b 1868. I've found the family on the 1891, 1901 and 1911 census records living in Lambeth. Charles junior was born in Clapham (but later recorded as Lambeth), Charles senior was born in Brighton.

Charles marriage certificate from 1889 shows his father was William Sayers, a butcher. In 1891 Charles and Elizabeth are living with Charles' parents William and Harriet.

In 1881 Charles is living with his parents and siblings (including one named Betsy, born about 1870). However going back to 1871 Charles Sayers cannot be found. Finding William and Harriet's marriage record shows they got married in 1873. Harriet's maiden name was Mockett. Searching for a Charles Mockett in 1871 shows an unmarried Harriet Mockett living with four children, Kate, Chas M, Susan M and H Elizabeth (who is most likely Betsy mentioned above, the same age and born in Brighton).

Both records show Charles Sayers/Chas M Mockett as born in Brighton about 1866. Searching for birth records there is no record of a Charles Sayers born in Brighton around 1866. The closest is one born in Lewes, but I have confirmed that is a different family. I ordered a copy of Charles Mockett's birth certificate (middle name is down as Moor), and as expected there was no father named.

This makes sense, Charles was born in 1866 and William in 1850 - he'd have been about 16 when Charles was born. William's wife Harriet was around 10 years older than him. Is there a way I can prove Charles Moor Mockett and Charles Sayers are both the same person? It seems he took the Sayers surname, meaning he most likely isn't related to Tom Sayers at all.

Going further back William's marriage names his father as Charles, a shoemaker. In 1871 William appears to be living with a cousin John Sayers, working as a butchers assistant. I cannot find him on the 1861 census, but in 1851 there is a 1 year old William living with parents Charles, a cordwainer, and Eliza Sayers - the family in Roy G's post, Charles being Tom's brother.

I believe it's correct, but how can I be sure I have the correct William and Charles, and is there a way I can prove Charles was Tom's brother myself, what records are available? Not suggesting I don't trust Roy's information, but showing someone a post on a forum isn't the same as having seen the proof yourself. On Ancestry.co.uk I did find a tree that suggested the same, and even included William and his wife Harriet (though with Charles Mockett and Charles Sayers as separate people), though as Roy mentioned some people may 'manipulate' their trees to include someone not actually related.

Hope that makes sense, I'd really just like another opinion to make sure I've not missed something or made a mistake at some point.
Hamilton, Ridley, Emmerson, Loosemore, Dolman, Derry, Elmer, Howells
England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland


Offline Roy G

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Re: Looking for info on Thomas Sayers - Boxer
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 19 April 11 06:50 BST (UK) »
Hi there ScottH     You write
In 1851 there is a 1 year old William living with parents Charles, a cordwainer, and Eliza Sayers (Charles being Tom's brother) 
I believe it's correct, but how can I be sure I have the correct William and Charles, and is there a way I can prove Charles was Tom's brother myself, what records are available?


OK you need access to the 1851 census showing 36 Bread Street in 1851 (folio 582) to find Charles born 1817 and his family.
You also need the IGI, to find Charles' baptism, but a much better doccument is the original parish register (also transcribed onto Microfiche by SFHG) which not only gives the parents, it also gives the street that the family were living in and the father's occupation.  It's that source that I suggest forges the link between Charles born Spring Street 1817 with Tom born in nearby Pimlico 1826. 

Perhaps you might also find it useful to then find the Sayers parents and any children still with them on the 1841 census and use the above baptism transcript to check out their movements from street to street as Tom's or Charles' other suggested siblings were born.

I'm also happy to chat with you off line (topic now getting a bit unwieldy) So send me a PM with your e-mail address  and we can then swap further notes.   Roy G

Offline sillgen

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Re: Looking for info on Thomas Sayers - Boxer
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 19 April 11 08:04 BST (UK) »
Just to point out that new members cannot use the pm system until they have three posts.  On the whole we prefer to keep topics to the board so that future researchers can benefit too.
Regards
Andrea

Offline ScottH

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Re: Looking for info on Thomas Sayers - Boxer
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 19 April 11 09:44 BST (UK) »
Hi there ScottH     You write
In 1851 there is a 1 year old William living with parents Charles, a cordwainer, and Eliza Sayers (Charles being Tom's brother) 
I believe it's correct, but how can I be sure I have the correct William and Charles, and is there a way I can prove Charles was Tom's brother myself, what records are available?


OK you need access to the 1851 census showing 36 Bread Street in 1851 (folio 582) to find Charles born 1817 and his family.
You also need the IGI, to find Charles' baptism, but a much better doccument is the original parish register (also transcribed onto Microfiche by SFHG) which not only gives the parents, it also gives the street that the family were living in and the father's occupation.  It's that source that I suggest forges the link between Charles born Spring Street 1817 with Tom born in nearby Pimlico 1826. 

Perhaps you might also find it useful to then find the Sayers parents and any children still with them on the 1841 census and use the above baptism transcript to check out their movements from street to street as Tom's or Charles' other suggested siblings were born.

I'm also happy to chat with you off line (topic now getting a bit unwieldy) So send me a PM with your e-mail address  and we can then swap further notes.   Roy G
Thanks for the quick reply Roy, the family I found were on 36 Bread Street, I just wanted to be certain that the William there is the correct one. With his father being listed as a cordwainer on the 1851 census and a shoemaker on William's marriage certifcate in 1873 it does seem to be correct.

I've found the baptism records on the IGI (assuming you do mean on www.familysearch.org ?).

I have had a look on the SFHG website, I'm not sure where on there I need to look. Are the transcriptions of the parish registers available online or do I need to order a CD? Where would I be able to view the original parish register document?

I have already looked for the family on the 1841 census. I found William, a 49 year old cordwainer living with Maria, 58 and Thomas, 15 (who actually looks like he's living with the family below, most likely a mistake). Not sure where the other children are though, I'll have a look. You mentioned James, do you know the names of the other two?
Hamilton, Ridley, Emmerson, Loosemore, Dolman, Derry, Elmer, Howells
England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland

Offline ScottH

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Re: Looking for info on Thomas Sayers - Boxer
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 19 April 11 09:49 BST (UK) »
Should have also mentioned when looking for Tom in 1851 he's living in Pancras, Middlesex, with Sarah, 18 and Sarah, 10 months, as others have found. However I also found a Thomas Sayers, 25, born in Brighton working as a shoemaker living at 13 Bread Street with wife Pamela and two children, just down the road from Charles and his family.

Is there another Thomas Sayers of a similar age from Brighton, or is it possible they are the same person?
Hamilton, Ridley, Emmerson, Loosemore, Dolman, Derry, Elmer, Howells
England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland

Offline Roy G

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Re: Looking for info on Thomas Sayers - Boxer
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday 19 April 11 10:53 BST (UK) »
Re   I have had a look on the SFHG website, I'm not sure where on there I need to look. Are the transcriptions of the parish registers available online or do I need to order a CD? Where would I be able to view the original parish register document?

Its not on the Internet, its something you have to purchase from SFHG publications called
"Brighton Baptisms 1813-1837. " My copy is on Microfiche but they have upgraded it to a CD and its now called Brighton Anglican Baptisms 1813-1837 and 1842-47   SXE86   CD-ROM
Roy G