Looking for info on Thomas Sayers - Boxer

[tamanaco]

Hi ScottH - I have not read all of the replies to your orignal query - only just joined the site as a newbie - saw one comment 'did he have a will' - I can answer that - yes he did of which I have a copy because at one stage I thought I was related (my mother's maiden name was Sayers) - so did a bit of research and came across the will. Also have some old photo, newspaper photos. Could not find a connection between him and our family. Incidentally did you know that it was estimated that 10,000 people lined the route of his funeral.

[TimDJ]

Hi,

I came across Tom Sayers, the great prizefighter, in "http://www.amazon.com/West-Chiltington-County-Sussex-village/dp/B0000CN311/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1388492907&sr=1-2" where it states that he used to live in my house in West Chiltington whilst training at the Swan Inn in Ashington down the road. I can't see a source for this in the book and it seems unlikely given that he seemed to shuttle between Brighton and London. Equally, it seems a little specific to be made up. Has anyone seen anything to support this on their travels through his past?

Best wishes, Tim

[Roy G]

I cannot say "That is Incorrect" but feel it highly unlikely. 
Did whoever wrote it, give any idea when he is reputed to have been there?

The likelyhood of A Mr Thomas Sayers being there however is more probable.
Tom's parents and grandparents were from not too far away in Storrington, as is Henfield which was also overflowing with others with the Sayers surname.

Tom the bare knuckle boxer is on record as being baptised in Brighton in 1826 when the family lived in a Brighton slum called Pimlico.   He then worked on the Brighton Viaduct not built until 1841 and only started boxing after that. So if he ever lived in West Chiltington or trained at the Swan, it had to be after 1841 when his boxing career took off.   This is what I have on his ancestry.

I have it that Thomas Sayer the boxer's Grandparents were:
= JAMES SAYERS & ELIZABETH of Storrington
His Parents were:
= William Sayers (b 1792) a shoemaker formerly of Storrington who
married Maria Hopkins of Tillington at St Nicholas Brighton on 30 Dec 1811
(Maria b c 1783 has also been recorded as Mary & Susan)
Their address in 1851 on folio 601 of the census was 74 Pimlico. Brighton

William and Maria had 5 children, including the three brothers;
Charles born Spring St, Brighton 1817 (Married Elizabeth (aka Eliza) Ball, Brighton 1835)
  (Charles' family were at 36 Bread Street in 1851 (folio 582))
James born Pimlico (a Brighton slum), Brighton 1824
Thomas born Pimlico Brighton May 1826, died November 1865
Thomas appears in Brighton with his parents on the 1841 index, but I have never checked where.
Thomas appears on 1851 census (HO107 1497 folio 63 for 45 Bayham Street St Pancras Middlesex)   

The 1841 index also shows two Thomas Sayers born 1826.  One is living in Brighton as expected, but there was another listed a little closer in the Shermanbury area of Sussex (Thomas Sayers of Cowfold).  I wonder if whoever wrote the book has mistakenly thought the Shermanbury Tom Sayers to have been the boxer?   Hence the dates that he is said to have resided there are important.

And no, I am not related, my Sayers are the other lot out of Robert Sayers, a Henfield bargee.
Roy G

[TimDJ]

Dear Roy,

Many thanks for your comprehensive answer. I think we agree that it just doesn't feel "right". The full paragraph from the aforementioned book is as follows "House X, now House Y, was a butcher's, the only shop shown on the (estate of 1800) map. It was later the home of Tom Sayers, the great barefist boxer, who trained at the Swan Inn, Ashington. (details of famous fight..). It was not known how long the Sayers family were here; there was a farm called Sayers near Old House." I suspect as you say, the rather common Sussex name of Sayers has a link to the house, but the link to Tom Sayers the boxer is fanciful.

A quick google shows that a Mrs Charlotte Sayers was the landlady of the Swan Inn, Ashington from 1890-1899 which may explain more "Sayers" confusion.

http://pubshistory.com/SussexPubs/Pulborough/SwanInn.shtml

A couple of sources are listed at the start of the 1965 book I have from which the text mentioning Tom Sayers is quoted. Unfortunately they are unpublished, but I do have the village museum across the road from me, so I may do some final digging there before abandoning the link totally.

Thanks again, Tim

[Roy G]

Hi Again and a Happy New Year.
I think I may have found a possible link, but have to admit I have not researched it and it is rather tenuous. 

Entries on the Curious Fox and another website suggest Tom's grand parents had a family tie to West Chiltington.   They say James Sayers was born West Chiltington c 1767 and was married to Elizabeth Pennicot b Yapton 1762.  Could that be a line of enquiry worth following up with the museum? 
They also say James subsequently died 8 March 1806, but Elizabeth lived until she was 97 and eventually died in Brighton on 4 Dec 1859.

We differ on Tom's mother by the way.  I have her as Maria nee Hopkins but the other website suggests she was Maria nee Thomas, but offers no suggested date or place of a marriage to Tom's father.
Roy G

[JimSayers]

Roy G./Valda, et al:

Hello from the U.S.  I'm a Sayers - originally from Harrisburg, PA, but now living near Washington, D.C.  My grandfather, also Jim Sayers, had a lithograph in his living room titled "The International Contest between Heenan and Sayers". 

Anyway, there was an old family story indicating that we were perhaps descendants of Tom.  I think it's more likely that maybe we're descendants of Tom's brother/cousin.  Would love to hear if you have any info about the American branch of the Sayers Family...starting in the mid-1850's and moving forward.

Also...a note on that.  The family story I've heard repeated many times indicates that the Original Sayers in America married an Indian Woman (possibly a Cherokee).  I see on the Dawes Commission Rolls (1896) that there is a William Thomas Sayers (43 years old, 1/16 Cherokee) and his two Children William Thomas Sayers (8 years old, 1/32 Cherokee) and Cora Ann Sayers (6 years old, 1/32 Cherokee).  Is it coincidental that William Thomas is named after Tom Sayers the boxer and his father?  If not, am I crazy to think there's a chance that William Thomas Sayers (the 43 yr old Cherokee man in 1896) might've been Tom Sayers' grandson?  Considering the tangled Sayers family situation in the 1850's & 1860's, does anyone know if any of Tom's children left the UK for America?

Love to get your thoughts, and thank you to everyone for your insightful commentary.

Cheers,

Jim Sayers

[Roy G]

Hi Jim
This could be one of those cart before the horse things, for the first thing you really have to do is find when your first Sayers ancestor arrived in the USA and who he was.  If you are lucky, you could find he came from Sussex.  I may be forward in suggesting, a lot of Sayers did.  Narrowing it down even further, where in Sussex.  If you anticipate Tom to be a relation, albeit distant, coming from Brighton or central Sussex would be a step in the right direction.

Get onto the LDS website (familysearch.org) and look up all the documents they have for the USA.  Social security records, census etc.  Look for names you know you are related to and work back from there using earlier documents and censuses.  We Rootschatters would certainly like to help you, but just knowing Grandad was a Jim Sayers without a spouse, birth year, birth place, or parents is not enough for us to go on.

By the way, the Cherokee Sayers line goes back through Abner Sayers (1781 - 1820) to his father David (1733 - 1819) so they significantly predate any connection with Boxing Tom.

Regards Roy G

[JimSayers]

Many thanks Roy; useful information and much appreciated.  Best, Jim

[Kate_genedetective]

Hello! I know this thread is quite old now, but I am currently working on the possibility that my husband's Sayers are linked to Tom Sayers, and wandering if anyone else out there is researching in this area still.
I think the James Sayers (West Chiltington c 1767) and Elizabeth Pennicot mentioned by Roy G were my husband's 6 x great grandparents, but my reasearch is a little thin on the ground between them and their possible grandson Morris Sayers who I am much more confident of  - Morris Sayers (husband's 4x g grandfarther) was a brick layer (Born 1820, brighton) - living on Bread Street in the 1851 which was in Pimlico, but his first daughter was born in Camden town in the early 1840s - I think that Tom was also living there for a while and I wander if he was working with his cousin Tom at that time (TOTAL speculation of course!)
so not a direct line relative but would be nice to solidify a connection non the less.
I think I need to get Iain's book!

Also (as the name suggests) I am wandering, mainly out of interest if any of those who think they may be direct decendents of Tom have found any DNA matches to show this  - my husband has DNA matches decended from Morris' sister but nil further back (which is probably abit hopefull given the genetic distance).
Or of course any Y chromsone testing would be interesting for those looking to see if they are decended (our link is through the maternal line but there are definatly male sayers about further up our tree, infact in my husband's great grandparents generation there were 9 sons! )

Thanks for reading!
Kate