Sarah Ann Hall Brown- Ripley

[marp]

Can someone help please?  I am looking for a Sarah Ann Brown (or Hall Brown) born Ripley about 1852.  She married a Joseph Cresswell in 1873 and died in child birth 14 June 1879.

Sarah Ann was born out of wedlock and apparently her father was  Joseph Hall (of Ripley) . Joseph Hall  was already married and he and his wife Mary  decided to bring up Sarah Ann.  She  was sometimes named Sarah Ann Hall Brown.  Any information on Sarah Ann and her mother (name not known) would be appreciated.
Thanks, marp

[suzard]

FreeBMD Birth
Mar qtr 1853 Belper (covers Ripley)

Sarah Ann Brown

Cert should give mothers name

[suzard]

Sarah Ann doesn't seem to be with Joseph and mary Hall in 1861

1851 next door to Joseph and Mary Hall lived Isaac and Hannah Brown anf family!! Interesting???

[John Whysall]

Amazing how the same names crop up from different threads!

An odd hour in the Family Records Centre, in Clerkenwell, turned up some confirmations. Nothing vastly new or different, but the Records Office folio codes, attached below, might help.

The nearest births to the suggested date and location, as I could see in the indexes, seem to be:
Dec 1852   Sarah Ann Brown   Basford   7b   109
Mar 1853   Sarah Ann Brown   Belper   7b   407
Mar 1853   Sarah Hall   Belper   7b   416
The second of these confirms the FreeBMD entry posted by Suzard.

I note, with no particular relevance, that there is a death registered:
March 1853   Sarah Hall   Belper   7b   339
Of course, the index at that date gave no other information, for example age.

The marriage index shows:
March 1873   Joseph Cresswell   Belper   7b   707
March 1873   Sarah Ann Hall   Belper   7b   707
This would indicate that, by the time of her marriage, Sarah Ann was using her adopted name: I could find no similar reference to a Sarah Ann Brown.

The index shows births for various Joseph Cresswells:
Mar (i.e. first quarter) 1851: none
June 1851: Belper (XIX 518)
Sep 1851: Wheatenhurst (XI 519)
Dec 1851: none
March 1852: Dudley (6b 136)
June 1852: none
Sep 1852: West Bromwich (6b 503)
Dec 1852: none.
There's one obvious candidate there.

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The 1851 Census is hard work. The original manuscript is in a (to my eye) very poor hand. The attempt at a transcription is, understandably, pretty iffy. Anything in "quotation marks" in the following is my pathetic attempt to decipher the screen image:

In the Ripley section, down to index 92 the place of residence is “Marehay”
Then we get the unintelligible:

93   “Weston shop”
Joseph Hall   Head   35   Coalminer   Derbyshire Denby
Mary A -ditto-   Wife   31   Coalminer’s wife   "Salapshire" Long Sore
Elizabeth -ditto-    Servant   16   House Servant   Derbyshire, "Louse Niped"

94   "Westan Spat"
William Stevenson   Head   32   Farming 6 acres "& jabing cow"   Derbyshire, Ripley
Candace   -ditto- Wife   29?   Farmer’s wife   Derbyshire, Ripley
William -ditto-   Son   15   Ag Lab   Derbyshire, Ripley
Mary -ditto-   Daughter   9   Scholar   Derbyshire, Ripley
"Jeanney" -ditto-   Daughter   6   Scholar   Derbyshire, Ripley

95   Marehay
John Whysall   Head   25   farming 35 acres land   Derbyshire, Ripley
John Whysall   Visitor   64   NK   Derbyshire, Ripley
Rebecca Whysall   Visitor   64   NK   Derbyshire, Shottle
Mary A   Visitor   25   NK   Derbyshire, Ripley
William   Visitor   24   NK   Derbyshire, Ripley
Thomas H   Visitor   21   NK   Derbyshire, Ripley
Sarah Buxton   Servant 14 House Servant Derbyshire, Ripley

That could be the Hall household, before Sarah Anne's arrival, and (heh! heh!) just two away from an interest of my own. Where on earth "Long Sore" (although presumably in Shropshire) and "Louse Niped" could be is anyone's guess.

I do not know if any of this helps. If I can clarify any of it, please come back at me.

[John Whysall]

Actually (and I'm no lawyer), I cannot see how I breached anyone's copyright in the previous posting — someone, somewhere is being a trifle precious. I cited publicly-available information, legitimately obtained in a public record office (the Family Records Centre, London). I edited and re-presented the material — so the edit is, surely and technically, MY copyright; and further editing it by deletion is a breach of MY copyright (which I gladly waive). Funny thing, this mania for faceless censorship.

However, to the main event. For Mary Ann Hunt, refer to the thread "Re: CRESSWELL look up please", in particular the posting, reply no. 18, by Spendlove on Wed 07 July 04. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,8792.15.html

PM SENT
copyright_editor

[suzard]

Looking at 1851 and to me "Long Sore" looks like it should be Shrewsbury -but spelly Shros -with bury written above

Wm Stevenson  occ "Farming 6 acres of Corn -"jobing" written above -think should be "jobbing" -i.e. "a jobbing farmer"-farmer without own farm

Elizabeth Hall 16 Servant p.o.b. "Louse Niped" Derbys -think this is ? House (house written above "Niped"- There is Hosrley Woodhouse nr Denby - could at a stretch be "Hsywd House " abbrev of Horsley Woodhouse?

[John Whysall]

Nice one, Suzard: many thanks and admiration for your usual insight and expertise.

If you have a moment, can you equally try your trained and knowing eye on the placename for the 1851 census registration location, households 93 and 94 on the same page (which I desperately rendered as "Weston/Westam Spat/Shop").

My reason is that I am trying to establish the geography of Ripley, especially Marehay and environs, mid-1800s, when several of my mob were living around there. Knowing the locations may help me to work out some complex pre-1837 relationships. There is, for example, one ferocious bust-up over various rights (and perceived rights). It also seems to have been a close (i.e. almost "normal for Norfolk") community.

And, in general, how far are we to clearing up the various Cresswells and (now) this odd Brown/Hall?

[suzard]

It looks like Western Spot but...... it is entered individually for each house-could be Western Shaft but..... on one entry the second word looks like SPU???

Enumeraters walk in 1851 was (I have included some Head of households-ones which "rang a bell")-you can have more if you wish?
86 through to 91 (2 households entered as no 91) Marehay
92 Western S?? Isaac brown
93 - Western S??? Joseph Hall
94 Western S -Wm Stevenson
95 Marehay -John Whysall
96 through to 103 Western S??
104 Woodside

I am on the way to sorting my Cresswells.

The Browns were a very large Denby family -married into Spence, Abbott as well as Cresswell-even Browns married Browns in Denby

I have (on paper) marriages 10 Dec 1844- 20 Oct 1894 for St James PC Codnor (many from Denby married there)
if you need any look ups?
There is a Whysall/Bryan marriage 1850
Whysall/Cooper 1855
Hickton/Whysall 1860
Fletcher-Whysall/ Burton  1861

Suz

[John Whysall]

I have distinct feelings of guilt at sequestering Marp's original thread; but obviously this is getting further into my particular interests.

My ulterior motive here is to start tying up loose ends: for example, I see my scratch-pad index (i.e. all the trivia that one accumulates but never manages fully to cross-reference) amounts to some 40 "John Whysalls" over three centuries — and that's only the worst example. Anything you (Marp or Suzard) may have is of interest, even if it merely adds to the sum of my blundering ignorance.

As for Marp's original point, can I summarise? Birth, marriage and death are fully established. Presence in the 1861 and 1871 censuses was probably established  (then censored) —  but, inevitably, I seem to have discarded that reference; so it's back to the FRC, and then smuggle it past the all-seeing editorial eye. That apart, from here on it would have to be local records, I guess.

I have a listing of non-conformist baptisms for Belper. A quick squint at that turned up Joseph Hall, baptised Belper Primitive Methodist, 24 July 1837, and a Sarah Brown, also Belper Prim Meth, for 30 Oct 1835.