Louisa Clark - b Hackney abt 1860

[ripperware]

Has anybody come across the birth or baptism my Great Grandmother, Louisa CLARK. I've been searching for her for years, without result.

Working backwards:
 - died in Bermondsey as Louisa MILLER in December 1933 aged 72; therefore born about 1861
 - 1901 census living in Bermondsey as "Louisa Miller, wife, married, 40, born in Hackney, London"; therefore born about 1861
 - 1891 census living in Bermondsey as "Louisa Miller, wife, married, 34, born in Hackney"; therefore born about 1857
 - 1881 census living in Haggerstone as "Louisa Miller, wife, married, 24, born in London, Middlesex"; therefore born about 1857
 - married in October 1880 in St James the Great, Bethnal Green to (William - unused christian name) Frederick Miller (of full age) , her age given as 20 and recorded as a spinster and the daughter of William Clark, bricklayer; their addresses merely show as Bethnal Green; witnesses are both Millers; therefore born about 1860
- 1871 census = not found
- 1861 census = not found

I have certificates for:
- Louisa Clark, b 6 Jan 1859, 14 Union Street in Stoke Newington, parents are Samuel and Emily Clark (nee Dallas)
- Alice Louisa Clark, b 17 Jun 1859, 30 Wellington Street in West Hackney, parents are Edward Thomas and Mary Ann Clark (nee Stallard)
- Louisa Clarke, b 11 Feb 1860, 9 Wargate Street in Hoxton Old Town, mother is Jane Clarke formerly Wescott (no father given)

The IGI carries:
- Louisa Clark, b 17 Jul 1855 (bp 12 Aug 1855 St John the Baptist, Shoreditch), parents are William and Louisa Clark; (born too early to fit my Louisa)
- Louisa Clark, b 21 Oct 1854 (bp 3 Dec 1854 St Dunstan, Stepney), parents are William and Mary Ann Clark; (born too early to fit my Louisa)

Anybody got any fresh ideas for me, please.

Ripperware

[Barbara F]

Hello Ripperware
I have been doing a bit of delving on this and have found a possible Louisa Clark on the 1861 and 1871 censuses.  Mother is Mary Ann Clark, a widow.  In the 1861 census Mary Ann and her children are living with Mary Ann's parents  Jeremiah and Eliza Reader.
Have you already discounted this family?  I can give you more details if you think they are "possibles".
Barbara

[ripperware]

Hi Barbara

I hadn't spotted this one and it looks better than anything I've found so far. Have found 1861 and 1871.

Mary Ann's son, George, looks like he was born after his father's death.

Need to find some births.

Thanks so much for this - am following this up now.

Ripperware

[ripperware]

No! George is probably the clue to his father's death!!

[Barbara F]

Hi Ripperware
Thought it looked quite good.
I found Mary Ann in 1851, unmarried and a servant (in Shoreditch I think). This gives a timeframe for her marriage
Can you work out the name of her oldest child shown in 1861? Was he born before her marriage do you think?
Barbara

[ripperware]

Actuall Barabara, I saw this 1861 census a few days ago and didn't take it as a serious candidate at that time because the age for Louisa wasn't close enough for me at that time. I remember it because I had a chuckle at the name Sturgeon Clark.

I've had a look at the baptisms for Steeple Bumpstead in Essex (the birthplace of Sturgeon on the 1861 census) and on 24 Dec 1848 there is recorded the baptism of Sturgeon Humphrey - my source had no parents, though! In the 1851 census he is aged 3 and living with his parents George and Elizabeth Humphrey in Steeple Bumpstead.

I'm having difficulty finding the death of George's father, if it was a William (as I'd like it to be) in the period 1858q3 (the time of George's conception) and 1861q1 (the census in which Mary Ann is a widow). This may mean the ancestry.co.uk indexes aren't so good and I need to spend some time looking at the images of teh PRO indexes.

Sturgeon Clark appears in the 1871 census in Shoeburyness as a labourer in the Brickfields and married to an Ann. It may be worth while getting his marriage certificate to tell me his father.

Hmm. All food for thought, but other matters are pressing and must sign off. I'll keep you posted of further developments.

Thank you so much once again for your interest and assistance.

Ripperware

[ripperware]

I've been having some second thoughts on this.

When Louisa Clark married on 3 Oct 1880 her age was given as 20 but her husband's age was given as "full age". If she had been of full age and over 21 I would have expected to have seen "full age" against both names. I suspect that this means that she was under 21 and therefore born in late 1859 or in 1860. A birthdate in 1857 seems a bit early to me.

I am aware that some of these "facts" need to be taken with circumspection but it also concerns me that she cited her father as William Clark a bricklayer. Had he died before the 1861 census and Louisa marrying 20 years later I wonder whether he would have been recorded as deceased in the occupation section of the marriage certificate.

All this assumes that I am not the descendant of inveterate tellers of tall tales.

Any views on this before I venture off into deepest Steeple Bumpstead?

Ripperware

[Barbara F]

Hello again
A couple of thoughts:
If Louisa was older than her husband she may have understated her age when she got married.  It is interesting that she aged 4 years between 1880 and 1881!
Some people did not know their ages. This could account for the variances in Louisa's.  The age at death can be unreliable as again it depends on the knowledge of the informant. My grandfather thought he was 2 years younger than he actually was - he was born in 1883.
The use of the word "deceased" on marriage certificates for dead fathers cannot be relied upon - it depends on how the question was asked and how much information the informant wished to give.
Sometimes a fictitious father's name will be given on a marriage certificate to hide illegitimacy.
I had a look at Sturgeon Humphrey - he is with his parents in 1861 and appears to have died shortly before the 1871 census. What an unusual name!
Have you checked the full indexes for the births of the Clark children and a possible marriage of Mary Ann Reader to a William Clark?
Do the names of Louisa's children give any clues to their ancestry? A Jeremiah could be useful!
Barbara