Author Topic: Birth details Hilda Aylmore  (Read 7988 times)

Offline casalguidi

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Offline AMBLY

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Re: Birth details Hilda Aylmore
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 16 September 06 13:07 BST (UK) »
 ::) ::)
Goodness!!
So many people onto the same family!! And we are all coming round to the same conclusions....

It is wise to be cautious... However, AYLMORE was not a common name in Whitstable area  - In  1901 Census, your Hilda's family were the only ones. There is certainly not another possible Hilda AYLMORE, anywhere in the UK in fact - unless the name is again wildly mistranscribed, or the age is - and I doubt it, I searched just under "Hilda" as it was to find your one.

And - the Hilda Annie AYLMORE born in Steyning, Sussex 1891 - she died  :'( in 1893 (FREEBMD)  So she is not a contender.

Also FREEBMD is not a complete source - but  even given that, if I search AYLMORE in Blean Registration District, there is :
1 Marriage - Porter to Ann KELSEY
0 Deaths
8 births - the first 4 of which are Hilda's younger siblings as per the 1901 Census - and I'm betting the rest of them are too.

You mention Hilda was supposed to have a sister named Polly and yet there is no mention of her in this family we have all found.  "Polly" may simply have not been born by 1901 - 1908 and Polly may well be a nickname that bears no resemblance to her birth name.  In 1901 Ann the mother,  was only 31. She has 10-15 good child bearing years left.  Indeed, I think it may prove that the other 4 Blean births after Ruby  in 1901, may also prove to be siblings:
1902 - AYLMORE  Ethel Colley L     Blean  2a 922   
1905 - AYLMORE  Raymond     Blean  2a 999   
1906 - AYLMORE   Ronald Pout     Blean  2a 947   
1908 -  Aylmore  Daphne     Blean  2a 1031

The  first thing is to establish whether or not the 1901 family is yours, and odds are that it is the correct one, and Hilda's  birth was registered as KELSEY.  I don't think there will be any better match. Luckily, you already  have a family sourced DOB to check against it. If Hilda was illigitimate  her birth certificate is  probably not going to have any mention of her birth father - but it will confirm her mother's name....

Once that is done, that leaves the question open as to who Frederick was.
And - did he come before or after Porter?
And - was or was he not Porter's brother?
And - what became of him

Hilda's 1918 marriage says her father was Frederick.
All romanticising about a lost beau who meets an untimely death on the seas and a brother stepping in as 'protector' to a young and bereft "widow" aside..... we must not  assume Frederick was her birth father!! He may have been the man who brought her up .  It is just as possible that Porter was her birth father and HE was the one who later disappeared or died and Frederick stepped in as the father figure to the family!

It would be interesting, therefore to see who  Hilda's sister Maud names as her father on her marriage records, if she married.

I cannot say if Porter's brother Frederick is the one mentioned on Hilda's marriage, maybe  it was another relative, but not a brother -  nor can I say if Frederick died btween 1881 and 1893 - I can find no FREEBMD death anyway.

Once establishing Hilda's mother was Ann Kelsey, I think could be an idea to get a birth cert of one the latest  children you can get a record of - maybe Ruby, or take a bigger risk and get Daphne's and see who the father is named as - was it Porter?

Who were the witness' when Hilda married William Fuller MILNER?

Question:
Where can one obtain Electoral Roll details for Whitestable 1918, to see who was at Hilda's marriage address.

Cheers
AMBLY

Later PS: Witness at Hilda's 1918 wedding were:
Ann POUT & E S HIGHSTEAD
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=183292.new;topicseen#new
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline AMBLY

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Re: Birth details Hilda Aylmore
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 16 September 06 21:36 BST (UK) »
I have found reference to1918 Absent Voters List
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=37064&st=0&p=302197&#entry302197

"Local  1918 Absent Voters Register will give some  military information and the home address of every man over 21 who was still alive when the register was compiled"

"Parents and/or any wives over the age of 30 will be on the 1918 Electoral Roll for the same address"

"Some old Almanacs that contain information, although the dates in them are not always accurate ........worth asking about at your local library"

This looks like a place to start?  And since that specific quest is buried in this topic about Hilda's birth, I would perhaps place a new message on the Kent board asking about the 1918 Register.

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)


Offline AMBLY

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Re: Birth details Hilda Aylmore
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 16 September 06 22:06 BST (UK) »
Frederick AYLMORE
Trying to narrow down possibilities.

On FREEBMD I search for Frederick AYLMORE 1838 to 1876 and have 4 results: 
1) 1862  AYLMORE Frederick  Westhampnett 2b268
2) 1867 Aylmore Frederick George   Chichester 2b346
3) 1873 AYLMORE Frederick Alfred   Westhampnett 2b324
4) 1875 - AYLMORE Frederick John R   Stoke D. 5b323

The last  born  1875, died in 1878, so that leaves just the top 3. Any one of them is of an age to be Hilda's father, albiet the 1873 is a bit young! And all Sussex born.

As said prior, FREEBMD is incomplete. It can give a good indication of where more unusual names appear to be clustered though.
In Census -  I search in each case just for Fred* Ayl*m*r* born anywhere, anytime, living anyplace. On occasion a surname is mistranscribed for one or the other of them - but over all Census these 3 found on FREEBMD are the only ones coming up 1871 to 1901 - with the exception of an extra soldier in 1891 who may well be misnamed or using a middle name. One would suppose, if there were many more than the 3 FREEBMD ones, that they'd appear on at least one of the 4 Census as another "candidate" to consider.  Apart from the soldier, not so. There are a few Frederick AYLMER's but as this is a distincly seperate name I won't go there at the moment.

1871:
1) Frederick 8,  b 1863  Ichenor, with his parents, Porter Hero & Caroline in Bosham.
2) Frederick 3, b 1868 (misindexed as AGHNORE) is in Sub Deanery Chichester,  with his parents Samuel & Emily

1881:
1) Frederick 19, b 1862 Itchenor, Mariner on the Vessel "Busy Bee" in Durham.
2) Frederick  13, b 1868 Chichester, Scholar  in SubDeanery Sussex with parents Samuel & Emily
3) Frederick 8, b 1873 Sidlesham (RD Westhampnett) , Scholar in Sidlesham. with parents Vine & Hannah.

1891:
1) Frederick 28, unm,  b 1862 Ichenor, Seas Mariner, living in Bosham West Sussex.(details below)
2) Frederick G, 23, unm,  b 1868 Chichester a Tailor(NOT a sailor!),  living with his parents Samuel & Emily in Rumbolds Wake Sussex
3) Frederick A , 17, unm, b 1874 Sidlesham, an Ag Lab, living Sidlesham with parents Vine & Hannah.
And we have another popping up:
4) Fredk 20, unm, b 1871 Brighton Sussex., a Private in Army Barracks in Kensington.

1901:
1) Not finding Itchenor Frederick.
2) Frederick 33,  b 1868 Chichester married to Ellen, living Wiltshire, a Tailor working from home,  and also Baptist Local Preacher.
3) Frederick 27, unm, b 1874 Sidlesham, an Ag Lab, living with his widow mother "Harriet", in Sidlesham.
4) Not finding  Army Fred. Couldn't find him 1881 either.

It's  looking very very likely to me, that the Frederick AYLMORE, Mariner, on Hilda's marriage record was indeed Porter AYLMORE's brother.

We have this Fred  in Census 1871 and 1881. Now,  seeing the overall Census results  - I feel this is him in 1891, not on the seas and not deceased - but very oddly enumerated. Coming next......

Cheers
AMBLY

PS: The 1930 US Census shows 2) Fred b 1868 Chischester and wife Ellen, are now in North Carolina USA  - where he is a Congregational Minister.
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline AMBLY

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Re: Birth details Hilda Aylmore
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 16 September 06 22:47 BST (UK) »
1891 - Bosham West Sussex,
RD Westbourne, REF: Class: RG12; Piece: 850; Folio 23; Page 12
Address: Bosham Terrace
Head* : Mary AYLMORE  38, b Freshwater, Isle of Wight
Son: Frederick AYLMORE 28, Seas Mariner, b Ichenor Sussex
Dau**: Annie BLANN 15, B Poole Dorset
Son**: Arthur BLANN 13, Telegraph Clerk, b Poole Dorset
Dau: Alice AYLMORE 9, Scholar, b Bosham Sussex
Dau: Beatrice AYLMORE 7, Scholar, b Bosham Sussex
Son: Percy AYLMORE 5, Scholar, b Bosham Sussex
Dau: Frederica AYLMORE 4, Scholar, b Bosham Sussex
Dau: Grace AYLMORE 1, b Bosham Sussex
Son: George AYLMORE 7 months, b Bosham Sussex


Patently, Frederick 28 is not Mary 38's 's natural born son!!

*  Mary was originally entered as a "Wife" - this was crossed out and "Head" was written over it.
** These two indexed as AYLMORE - but on image, they are clearly not, and at first unsure, but now I can see: their surname is BLANN.

So now we have Porter & Frederick, I believe, in 1891.

And neither of them in 1901, though we assume - maybe incorreccly -  that Porter is the "husband at sea" in Ann AYLMORE"s 1901 entry.

Here is Mary, of the 1891 above, in 1881:

1881 - Bosham Sussex
RD Westbourne, REF: Class: RG11; Piece: 1135; Folio: 27; Page: 15
Address: Seaside - Heathfield Str.
Head: Mary S AYLMORE 29, marr, Master Mariner's wife, b Freshwater Isle of Wight
Son: Willis AYLMORE 12, Scholar, b Itchenor, Sussex
Son: Alfred AYLMORE 10,m Scholar, b Bosham Susses
Dau: Annie AYLMORE 5, Scholar, b Poole Dorset
Son: Arthur H. S. AYLMORE, 3, b Poole Dorset
Dau: Louisa A. M. AYLMORE 7 months, b Bosham.


OK
I'm taking a BIG breath here becasue I gotta get this right.......this all goes back to Porter Hero AYLMORE - Porter Jnr and Frederick's father.

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline AMBLY

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Re: Birth details Hilda Aylmore
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 16 September 06 23:57 BST (UK) »
In 1881 Willis AYLMORE is age 12, and  listed as Mary's son, above.

But, in 1871 Willis  is age 2 and son of Porter Hero AYLMORE and wife Caroline (age 41). (see way above).

Porter Hero AYLMORE  and Caroline TOWES were married in 1859.

Caroline AYLMORE age 49, died: Mar Quarter 1879 , RD Westbourne, Ref: 2b275.

She is hardly cold, when Porter Hero AYLMORE married again, to:
Mary Sophia BLANN in  Jun Qtr 1879 in Chichester.

So....In 1881 and 1891 above: Mary S AYLMORE's absent husband is Porter Hero AYLMORE (he's P H AYLMORE on a Vessel in Sussex with Albert & Percy aboard too in 1901, Mary is found also in 1901 but no stepsons Frederick or Porter in the house).

And... Frederick AYLMORE in her house in 1891, is her technical stepson - Porter's Hero's son by Caroline and the  brother to Porter Jnr who married Ann KELSEY 1892....

I am picking that:
Willis and Alfred in 1881 are Porter Hero's  by Caroline.
Annie & Arthur in 1881 are Mary's (nee STARKE, by William BLANN)
Louisa in 1881 is theirs

Further:
Marriages Dec Qtr 1870 , RD: Isle of Wight: Ref: 2b 1005
William BLANN to Mary Sophia STARKE

Deaths Mar Qtr  1879, RD: Lymington Hampshire, Ref: 2b 415 
BLANN  William age  41  Lymington   
(if this is Mary;'s husband - looks like both she and Porter Hero were both very newly widowed when they married 1879)

Still doesn't answer - where was Porter jnr & Fred in 1901
Still doesn't answer which one was Hilda's father.

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline AMBLY

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Re: Birth details Hilda Aylmore
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 17 September 06 00:20 BST (UK) »
Hi Pennielane

Digressing a bit:
But of interest looks like Hilda's brother William (as on the 1901) was a seaman and in 1953 was on a ship into a USA port

Oregon Passenger and Crew Lists
Departed: Vancouver And Victoria, British Columbia
Arrived: Portland, Oregon 21 Mar 1953
Vessell: COULGORM
Crew Member: William AYLMORE age 57, born 27 Jul 1895 Whitstable (British)
Was not a Crew Member on last voyage to USA
Length of Service at Sea : 35 (Years)
Position: A.B. (Able Seaman)
Engaged (on the Coulgorm) 13 Nov 1952
Whether To be Discharged at Port of Arrival: No
Description: : 5'8", 154 Llbs, Tattooed both forearms.

He's also mentioned here:
http://oystertown.net/people/ww2men.html

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline AMBLY

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Re: Birth details Hilda Aylmore
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 17 September 06 05:06 BST (UK) »
Hi Pennielane!

On the other side, you were also asking about your Grandfather:
William Fuller MILNER age 31 in 1918 (so born approx 1887) and Corporal Royal Engineer service number 331620.

A  widower when he married Hilda, in 1918 but no details known of his first wife or of any issue of that  marriage.  He was living at 6 Granby Terrace, Sowham. Cambridge. His father was Carlton Milner occupation master butcher.

Someone else, named Phil was looking for William - his Grandad too -  a year ago (and said he was born in Sunderland)
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42523

The exciting thing is, Phil  is saying his father, son of William Fuller MILNER was born June 1914.
Therefore, it looks to me as if he a descendant of the first marriage you speak of  ;D ;D

Phil had  found him on the 1918 absent voters list for  Cambridgeshire
as: William Fuller Milner WR/331620 Cpl., I.W. & D., R.E.

IW & D stands for "Inlands Waterways & Docks".
RE stands for "Royal Engineers"

A medal card was found:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...1&resultcount=1
Milner, William
Corps Regiment No Rank
Royal Army Medical Corps 37485 Private
Royal Army Medical Corps 37485 Corporal
Royal Navy Reserve Royal Engineers W R 331620 Serjeant

On the forum, you can read what Phil had transcribed  as to what the medal card says.

So, I would perhaps be sending Phil a PM thru that forum and hope he is still getting notifications thru it!

Meantime: I'll post up William and his family on the Census...coming up

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline AMBLY

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Re: Birth details Hilda Aylmore
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 17 September 06 05:40 BST (UK) »
1901: Sunderland  Durham
Ecclesiastical parish:St Michael
RD :Sunderland  Sub-RD :North Bishopwearmouth , ED 17
REF: Class: RG13; Piece: 4707; Folio: 187; Page: 23
Address; 32 Vale Street
Head: Carlton MILNER 38, Butcher (own account) , b So. Hylton Durham
Wife: Mary Jane MILNER 40, b Sunderland
Son: Carlton MILNER 15, Iron Manufacturers Clerk, b Sunderland
Son: Wm. Fuller MILNER 13,  b Sunderland
Dau: Mary Alice MILNER 8,  b Sunderland
Son: Frank MILNER 6,  b Sunderland
Son: James Melvin MILNER 3,  b Sunderland
Son: Harold F MILNER 1,  b Sunderland


1891 - Bishop Wearmouth,  Sunderland Durham
Ecclesiastical parish:Christchurch
RD :Sunderland  Sub RD :South Bishop Wearmouth  ED:6b
REF: Class: RG12; Piece: 4134; Folio 72; Page 40
Address: 8 Avenue Terrace
Head: Carlton MILNER 28, Butcher, b Sunderland Durham
Wife: Mary MILNER 30, b Sunderland Durham
Dau: Jenny MILNER 9, Scholar, b Sunderland Durham
Son: Samuel A MILNER 7, Scholar, b Sunderland Durham
Son: Carlton MILNER 5, Scholar, b Sunderland Durham
Son: William F MILNER, 3, b Sunderland Durham
Dau: Sarah MILNER 1 week, b Sunderland Durham
SisterInLaw: Sarah WILSON, 28, single, Nurse (sick), b Sheffield Yorkshire


Carlton MILNER married Mary Jane WILSON
RD Sunderland 10a 701, June Qtr 1881

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)