Author Topic: Trying to prove second marriage - Help Please  (Read 2432 times)

Offline atth2o

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Trying to prove second marriage - Help Please
« on: Sunday 07 November 04 16:43 GMT (UK) »
I am trying to prove a second marriage which would link a whole new branch to my tree.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

This is what I know:

Willam Attwater - born June 4, 1826 in Halstow, Kent.
     1878 - Marriage reference found for Agnes COVENEY to William Attwater in Canterbury & Swale District (Kent registration services)  A little confusing as I thought her name was Agnes FRANCES.
     1833 - Estimated birth year for Agnes - Ospring, Kent
     1881 census - Sittingbourne with wife Agnes.
     1891 census - Sittingbourne with wife Agnes.
     1901 census - Sittingbourne with wife Agnes.
     Buried with William in Sittingbourne Cemetery.

This is what I suspect:

Possible first marriage:  1844 to Effield CHAMBERS in Canterbury & Swale District (Kent registration services)
     IGI birth for Effield - 25 JAN 1829   Milton Next Sittingbourne, Kent, England
     1871 census - Faversham with wife Effield
     1876 - Death reference found on Free BMD (March Quarter, 1876, ATTWATER, Effield, Age 47, Milton, 2a, 524?)
     Buried in Sittingbourne Cemetery

My conclusions & questions:

I suspect that this William ATTWATER is the same person.  On the census data the birth place is the same.  Although there is minor age changes recorded in the census, it only changes by 2 years between 1841 to 1901.

Is there any way of proving this is the same William?
Will a marriage certificate state that this is his second marriage (to Agnes)?
Is Frances possibly a middle name for Agnes?
Or was Agnes possibly married before?

Any help is greatly appreciated.  What are your thoughts?   :-\ 



Attwater - Kent & London England (All spelling variations)
Goodwin - Kent & London England
Cronin - Ontario & Ireland
Clancy - Peter Robinson Expedition - Ontario, Canada & Rockmills, Cork, Ireland
Kenneally - Ontario, Canada & Ireland
Redmond - Ontario, Canada & Ireland
Shepley - Ontario, Canada & Lancashire, England

Offline casalguidi

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Re: Trying to prove second marriage - Help Please
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 24 May 05 02:57 BST (UK) »
Hi Nancy

Have you made any progress with this one yet? 

Best wishes

Casalguidi
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline piedstilt

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Re: Trying to prove second marriage - Help Please
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 24 May 05 03:41 BST (UK) »
Hi Nancy,

Hope this helps ...

Effield is such an unusual name and when I looked it up on Ancestry I was intrigued to see an Effield Attwater, born Sittingbourne c 1887, living with parents Richard and Mary Ann in  Hoo, Kent. I wondered if Richard were the child of the first marriage and he called his daughter after his mother.

Then I found the following family on the 1861 census in South Shoebury, Essex:

William Atwater, c1827,  Halstow, Kent, England, Head, brickmaker
Effield Atwater1829,  Milton, Kent, England, Wife
Richard Atwater, c1845, Sittingbourne, Kent, Son, brickmaker
William Atwater, c1851,  Kingsland, Middlesex, England, Son
Florence Atwater, c1860,  Sittingbourne, Kent, England, Daughter

Both William and Richard (born c.1846, Sittingbourne) are shown as brickfield labourers in the 1891 census.

QED, wouldn't you think?

Cheers,

Ros

 
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline atth2o

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Re: Trying to prove second marriage - Help Please
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 24 May 05 22:54 BST (UK) »
Hi Ros,

Yes, Richard is the son of William and he did name a daughter Effield.  Thank you for looking into my enquiry.  I really appreciate your assistance.   :-*

Nancy
Attwater - Kent & London England (All spelling variations)
Goodwin - Kent & London England
Cronin - Ontario & Ireland
Clancy - Peter Robinson Expedition - Ontario, Canada & Rockmills, Cork, Ireland
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Offline Zacktyr

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Re: Trying to prove second marriage - Help Please
« Reply #4 on: Monday 11 July 05 14:25 BST (UK) »
Hello Nancy,

I have a little piece of your puzzle that may help clear up some confusion.

Agnes Harriet Wills FRANCIS was christened at Faversham on 24 July 1835, the daughter of James and Amy FRANCIS.  James was a musician.  James and Amy had 13 other children in addition to Agnes commencing in 1816 up to 1841.  James also had married previously and had one child by that marriage during 1813.  It is interesting to note that a number of surnames were used as part of most of the children's names, for example Ladson, Lester, Ring, King, Goldsmith, Blundell, Barling and Wills.

James and Amy did not live in Faversham at the time of the 1851 census.  In 1841 the Francis family was living in Faversham with some missing, but Agnes at age 5 is present in the home.  The family unit was found in E.D. No. 1, on page 14:  James FRANCIS 55, Edward 15, Ellen 14, Julia 13, Charles 12, John 10, Amy 7, Agnes 5.

So at least you know that an Agnes FRANCIS did exist in 1841 of about the birth year.  I do not have a marriage for Agnes FRANCIS in Faversham, however, so if she is one and the same lady, then the marriage happened elsewhere.  Neither is there a burial of an Agnes FRANCIS at Faversham up to 1900!

I hope this smidgen of information helps.

Regards,
Susan
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Offline Huron

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Re: Trying to prove second marriage - Help Please
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 27 September 05 00:36 BST (UK) »
Hello Nancy,

I'd be interested to hear if you do link your family with Agnes Francis from Faversham. I'm descended from James Francis, through his son Frederick Lester Francis. I've been trying to trace what happened to as many of his brothers and sisters as possible.

All the best,

Alex

Offline Janet Mc

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Re: Trying to prove second marriage - Help Please
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 21 September 17 03:21 BST (UK) »
James FRANCIS married Sarah ELLIOT 27 April 1812 in Faversham.
Their child:
1) Frederick Elliot bapt 8 Dec 1813 and buried 2 Jan 1814
Sarah had died 21 Nov 1813.

James FRANCIS married Amy WILLS on 29 May 1815 Hernehill, Kent (Amy 19 and witnesses William WILLS and Lydia Mills ?Wills)
Their children - all christened Faversham, Kent

1) Elizabeth Ladson Francis  Christening: 14 JUL 1816
2) Frederick Lester bapt 21 Nov 1817married Mary Ann Ditch 26 Feb 1841 in Cranbrook(1 son Thomas Ditch F). Then his cousin, Sarah DUNK in 1842 and then Elizabeth FORD (probably a widow as surnamed 'Mills') 23 Oct 1860, Holy Trinity, Dover, Kent. Died 16 Jan 1900 Dover, Kent1. Buried 20th. 1881 living Dover 'professor of singing and music'
3) James King 20 Aug 1819 buried 2 Sept 1819 Faversham
4) James Ray   chr 8 May 1820, married Elizabeth Rowe KIND, 4th Q 1851 and died 1st Q 1907 Horsham. 5 dts with mother's, sister's names
5) Walter Goldsmith ch 21 Aug 1822 and became photographer. Married Elizabeth MANZI 1859 and died 1st Q 1877 Greenwich. 4 dts. 2 sons. One of dtrs is 'Amy Wills,' In 1861 listed as 'boarder' in Burwash. He was a photographer
6) Edward Thomas Ladson   chr 11 June 1824 and died post 1851
7)  Ellen Elizabeth Ladson Christening:     21 DEC 1825, married Henry Jackson 23 June, 1846 in Wandsworth, Surrey, died post 1881 in Hertfordshire
8)  Julia Caroline King (maternal grandmother's maiden name)
   Christening:     10 OCT 1827      Faversham,
   9) Charles William Lester 28 April 1830, Married Eliz. Rebecca HESLOP on 29 April 1852, death Oct 1875 in Monmouthshire, Wales2. Publican at time of eldest son's birth 3 sons. dtr
9) John Blundell chr 11 July 1832. Married Elizabeth PHILLIPS in 1852. Died in 1st Q 1870 in Kent but had lived in 1861 in Birmingham. Named a son after ETL in 1859 which suggests perhaps his brother died at that time.
10) Amy Mary Barling Francis Christening: 20 NOV 1833, married William Penton HARE 1 Aug 1853 Southwark and died 3rd Q 1876. 2 dts 
11) Agnes Harriet Wills Francis  Christening: 24 JUL 1835, married Samuel Mordy Hulbert 19 Dec 1858 Southwark . Had 2 dtrs, 1 son. One of dtrs named Amy and other uses 'Wills' as middle name. Died 2nd Q 1871, greater London. Father & Eliz. Manzi were the witnesses
12) Henry Willliam chr 16 May 1837 and died 1st Q 1838
13) Emma King born 1838 and died 1848
14) Esther Victoria Adelaide Francis - Christening: 20 JAN 1841. married Charles Brightiff in 1860 and died 1870 in Hampshire. 3 dtrs, 1 son including an 'Amy Wills'

1851 census (wife almost certainly dead).
James Frances is living in Bermondsey with 2 of his sons
James Frances born Ruckinge* in Kent. Muscian 67
William G Frances Musician 29
John B Frances Hairdresser 19
This son later also became a musician and married an Elizabeth Philips and moved to Gravesend.


I haven't found wife Amy in either the 1841 or 1851 censes. Would love to.
I also haven't found a death for James Francis post 1861 and prior to 1871. The Bermondsey death in 1862 says the boy is 19. So unless it should be 79 - this isn't him.

Offline Huron

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Re: Trying to prove second marriage - Help Please
« Reply #7 on: Monday 25 September 17 22:29 BST (UK) »
Hi Janet,

Very pleased to see your information about the Francis family.

I have some more information about them which I've found over the years since my last post on here.

An Amy Francis, of the correct age to be James' wife Amy Wills, was buried in All Saints, Rotherhithe, Southwark, Surrey on 22 March 1856. She was living at Cecilia Place, Spa Road.

In 1851 she was in Milton, Gravesend with three of her children. Haven't figured out a connection for why she would have been there. She also lists her husband's profession as a shoemaker, which is what James apprenticed to be, rather than musician which is what he'd been listing his profession as for at least a couple of decades. I do wonder if perhaps there was a bit of a rift over how he was earning a living. I couldn't find her, or the other missing family members, in 1841 either.

Amy's brother William Wills was transported to Australia for his part in the Courtney Revolt, a peasants revolt in the 1830s. If you Google the Battle of Bosenden Wood, you can find an account from the time that mentions him. An extraordinary story.

Elizabeth Ford was married to the manager of the George Inn in Cranbrook (surname Mills) at the time Frederick Lester Francis was living there, so that would be where they met. Don't know why they moved to Dover, but interestingly my Grandfather visited Frederick's daughter Sarah Emily, his Aunt, in Dover during WW1. Her brother Frederick Henhurst, my Great Grandfather, emigrated to Canada. My Grandfather kept a diary during that visit and mentioned she showed him the house his father was born in. Except his father and Sarah were born in Cranbrook. Maybe he just got confused, but it suggests Sarah herself might not have known about her father's life before they moved to Dover when she was a very little girl. Possibly suggests that for some reason Frederick Lester wanted to start a new life away from Cranbrook.

I haven't found anything to suggest Sarah Dunk and Frederick Lester Francis were cousins. Can I ask where you found that?

I've been working on taking the Francis family further back from this if you're interested.

Alex



Offline Janet Mc

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Re: Trying to prove second marriage - Help Please
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 26 September 17 01:42 BST (UK) »
Yes, I'd be very interested in finding out more. I'm a descendent of Julia Caroline King FRANCIS.

Could you put up the census results for the 1851 that you found for Amy Francis?

I did come across that brother William Wills was transported. He was a witness at their wedding (might have been her father perhaps?).

I wonder where she was in 1841. I tried a search the other day for her + other children but didn't find her in either.

Have you found a death for James FRANCIS (husband of Amy Wills?) I'm beginning to think the '19' year old in Bermondsey is him and the number should have been 79 - it fits with age and place. Anyone want to buy the death certificate?

How do we get in touch apart from this? Private message?