Hills family, Carlisle

[genjen]

Hi,

I have the record of a birth for Herbert Augustus Hills, 1837, Highland Castle, Carlisle. His parents were John Hills and Anna Reynolds.

My first question is; what or where, is or was, Highland Castle?

This was an extremely illustrious family, full of high court judges and the like, and I have found the daughter in law of the above couple at Corby Castle in 1901, still married but no sign of her husband. He was probably away judging someone, somewhere.

Is there anyone who knows anything about the family? If so, I'd love to hear from you.

Regards,

Jen

[Geoff E]

There's a Herbert A HILLS 14, a scholar at Eton in 1851 ... his birthplace is given as Rome.

Also, in 1861, Herbert Aug HILLS 24 BA Oxford, Rome

was staying at the Red Lion, Hoxton Herts

This chap seems quite illustrious to me but is lacking an obvious Cumbrian connection.

I've failed to find him in any later census, but Googling found me, "Herbert Hills came up to Balliol at the same time as Edward Herbert. He was in the College Eight, and in the O.U. Fours in 1858. He became a barrister, and eventually became Judge of the Court of Appeal in Cairo."  This seems to link him with Oxford University.

I see the IGI entry which you quote has no date, so is likely to have been "worked back" from some other information.  Two plus two in such circumstances does not always make four.

[genjen]

Hi,

Thanks for this. Yes, I have also seen the census entries and was confused by the Rome / Carlisle discrepancy. I still think it could be the same person. The family does have later connections in Westmorland.

I am researching this family for a friend and I have a family tree in front of me as I write but it is very poorly done and lacks vital information on almost all the entries. But I do at least know most of the names I am looking for.

In my first posting I said that his daughter in law was living in Corby Castle, Wetheral, in 1901. It was actually his wife, Anna Hills - I was having a minor lapse in concentration prior to a dental appointment, sorry.

This couple's son, Eustace Gilbert, was born in 1868 in North Yorkshire, in another minor stately home near Bedale. He also became a high court judge. Probably sent some of my own ancestors off to prison. I certainly had some who spent time inside.

Anyway, thanks for getting back to me. I shall carry on with the search.

Regards,

Jen

[Geoff E]

You actually said that Anna was a daughter-in law "of this couple" so you were right.

Twice at least, Herbert said he was born in Rome ... I would tend to believe him.

A breakthrough of some sort ... putting

"Herbert Hills" judge

into Google finds a link to an obituary of a son  ... part of the extract reads

"E. H. GROVE-HILLS, 1864-1922. EDMOND HERBERT HILLS was born on August 1, 1864, at High Head Castle, Cumberland. His father had been Judge of the Court of ....

Unfortunately, I can't tell more as the site is not generally available.

This leads to http://www.bbc.co.uk/cumbria/content/articles/2006/07/31/highhead_restoration_2006_feature.shtml

Hopefully, this is of some use.

[genjen]

Edmund Herbert was the eldest son of Herbert Augustus and Anna ( Grove) Hills. He was married to Juliet Spencer-Ball, about whom I know precisely nothing.

I still think that the person born in Carlisle is probably the same as the one who says he was born in Rome. It is quite possible that he was brought up in Rome and therefore thinks that he was born there. I have a great grandfather of my own who made the same mistake, though not in such elevated circumstances.

Part of my reasoning is that Herbert Augustus is not the most common of names and I do feel that if there were more than one of these, born in or around 1837, one of them would show up on the censuses after 1861. My H.A. Hills died in 1907 and so ought to be on all censuses from 1841-1901 but as you say, he doesn't appear after 1861.

I shall keep looking to see whether or not he has been mis-transcribed.

Thanks again,

Jen

[Geoff E]

I think they are the same person (wherever he was born) ... not perfect English but you know what I mean.

These are the facts as I see them-

There is a submitted entry on the IGI that Herbert was born at Highland Castle, Carlisle.  This entry has no date, no baptism.  Furthermore, there is no such place.  The parents are named as John HILLS and Anna REYNOLDS ... if these were correct, they may have married at Westminster in 1834 (transcribed entry, not submitted).  This same John HILLS is alleged to have died 10 Dec 1848 (submitted entry).

Herbert A HILLS seems to have attended Eton followed by Oxford University before marrying Anna GROVE in 1863 (in London).  Interestingly (perhaps), Anna had sisters born in Italy and France (1851 census), so her family got around a bit too.
 
As I said,  there was Edmund born (possibly) in High Head Castle, Cumb in 1864.  This place was about 8 miles south of Carlisle ... I doubt it would be described as "Carlisle" in any official record.  It is close enough, I'll hope you will agree, to be the Highland Castle mentioned speculatively in 1837?

In passing, I noticed that there was a John HILLS bap in Paris in 1828 (son of John and Mary Ann) ... could he have been a half brother of Herb's?  If so, it seems that John HILLS (senior) may also have done a bit of globetrotting (diplomatic service?).

Perhaps Herb was also involved in such colonial matters.  I see he was missing in 1881 and you say he wasn't around in 1901.  I suppose one must wonder if he was still actually married to Anna by 1881 in view of the apparent lack of young children.

One further point - the page about High Head Castle - that I linked to - said it was built mid 18th century and the family was squabbling for the next 100 years over it.  Unless it can be shown that John WILLS was linked to the BROUGHAM family, it seems unlikely that he was living there in 1837.

[genjen]

Geoff,

Thanks again - I always feel guilty when other people are doing my work for me, especially when it is over night!

I should imagine that  Highland/High Head Castles are one and the same place and I shouldn't be in the least bit surprised to find that there was a link to the Brougham family. Anna Grove came from an extremely well connected family in South Wales and even now the friend for whom I am doing this research talks about her parents and grandparents belonging in the upper levels of society. It is a totally alien world as far as I am concerned but I find it fascinating to see how fortunes can change.

 Anna Grove's father was Sir William Robert Grove who was at one time deputy lieutenant for Glamorgan, a high court judge and a physicist of some renown. Her great granddaughter, on the other hand, is almost as stony broke as I am and most certainly doesn't live in a castle of any description.

Her father ( the friend's, that is, not  Anna Grove's) was educated at Lime House School, Wetheral, which is another link to the area.

Herb and Anna did have a son named John Waller Hills ( the Right Honourable) who married  Stella Duckworth and Mary Grace Ashton, though in which order I am not yet sure. He was the MP for Ripon ( I think that's what the entry on the tree says but very unclear) and had a post in the treasury.

I believe that Herb and Anna stayed married and that Eustace was the youngest of their offspring, born 1868. And I should imagine that you are right about the diplomatic service bit. It would explain all these children born in Rome/Paris etc. I should be able to find out more about this from the National Records Office.

There is a significant number of men in this family who have Coleridge as a christian name. I don't know if we have a link to the poet or not but that's worth a look as well, I think!

Cheers for now,

Jen

[Geoff E]

John Waller HILLS ... a bit of a JR HARTLEY it seems with his fishing books!

Also

"Major John Waller Hills, 71, famed British economist, was slated for a baronetcy on King George's New Year's Honors List, but died a few days before it could be conferred. After a tactful interval, the King gave the title to Major Hills's five-year-old son. When his mother told him of his new rank, Sir Andrew Ashton Waller Hills asked: "Is it something nice to eat?"

You were right about Ripon http://www.answers.com/topic/ripon-uk-parliament-constituency

[genjen]

I hope he was given something other than a title to make what was a very short life worth living. Sir Andrew AH died in a street accident at the age of 22.

Jen