Author Topic: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands  (Read 66268 times)

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #162 on: Tuesday 19 June 18 09:16 BST (UK) »
No worries, good luck.....Caithness is a veritable Sutherland minefield  ;D
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth,Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

Offline mweston

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #163 on: Monday 02 November 20 03:45 GMT (UK) »
Hi All I am another Frustrated Sutherland Researcher.  My research is with William Sutherland born 1854 to Alexander and Jane Sutherland in Caithness Scotland.  I can't find his birth but in the 1861 and 1871 Census he is living with his Grandparents David and Margaret Sutherland at Latheron, Caithness.  In 1871 he is an apprentice Tailor.  In 1873 he boards the Isle of the South and arrives in Llyelton New Zealand on 2 November 1874 and stays with his Aunt and Uncle.. John and Janet Sutherland of Mount Grey Downs, Sefton, New Zealand.  At some stage he joins the Canterbury Police Force and marries Isabella Kelly in Canterbury in 1882.  In August 1882 they board the Wakatipu for Sydney Australia and William begins work with the NSW Police Force on 26th September 1882.  He talks his cousin David, son of John and Janet Sutherland to join him and he leaves on the Rotomahana 28th February 1886 for Sydney Australia and after a few months joins the service only to be shot by a burglar and dies after identifying him.  There are many articles in the paper regarding this as well as a mugshot of the man who committed the crime.  William identifies his cousin and then he himself is hit on the head and dies from complications in 1901.  I am trying to find his parents in Scotland his grandparents were living at Torbeg, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness.. is anyone related to this family?

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #164 on: Monday 02 November 20 11:20 GMT (UK) »
Hi mweston....welcome to the frustrating (but sometimes rewarding) search for Sutherlands in this part of the country  ;)

Unfortunately, I have not got any of these Sutherlands in my tree. So sadly, no I don't think we are related...as far as I can see anyway.

You may not ever get a birth/baptism for William Sutherland being born around 1854. Registration only started in Scotland in 1855, so before that you have to rely on the child being baptised...and from my experience in Caithness baptisms are few and far between (with my Sutherland's at least!).

I can see a tree on Ancestry that has the NZ marriage record for William Sutherland & Isabella Kelly attached (perhaps this is your tree?) showing the below information:

Marriage 1 Aug 1882, Lyttelton
William Sutherland, 28yrs, bachelor, tailor, b. Caithness, Scotland, parents Alexander Sutherland (shoemaker) & Jane Sutherland (MS Sutherland)
Isabella Kelly, 24yrs, spinster, b. Hobart, Tasmania, parents William Kelly (Labourer) & Isabella Kelly (MS Farquhar)

The census returns you found in 1861 and 1871 at Torbeg, Dunbeath Estate seem likely to be 'your' William Sutherland, especially with his being listed as an apprentice tailor in 1871. Is there any other confirmed link to Torbeg/Dunbeath or the grandparents David & Margaret Sutherland? Do you know whether David & Margaret Sutherland are the parents of Alexander or Jane? Both William's parents having the surname Sutherland makes it a bit more of a challenge!

Do you have a maiden name for William Sutherland's grandmother Margaret?

Women in Scotland are often recorded in death records after 1855 under both their maiden and married names, so you might be able to track down his mother or grandmother's deaths searching on Scotland's People that way.

Torbeg appears to be quite a small settlement, it is referred to in Scotland's Places in 1871 as consisting of 3 crofts.

https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/caithness-os-name-books-1871-1873/caithness-volume-06/281

I can see that the census returns show the below:

1861 - Torbagge, Latheron, Caithness
David Sutherland Head 64yrs Farmer b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Wife 62yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Dau 33yrs Domestic Servant b. Latheron, Caithness
Mary Sutherland Dau 20yrs Domestic Servant b. Latheron, Caithness
William Sutherland Grandson 7yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness

1871 - Torbeg, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness
David Sutherland Head 75yrs Crofter b. Berriedale, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Wife 73yrs Crofter's Wife b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Dau 43yrs Crofter's Daur b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Jamesina Sutherland Dau 32yrs Crofter's Daur b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Mary Sutherland Dau 29yrs Crofter's Daur b. Dunbeath, Caithness
William Sutherland Grandson 17yrs Tailor (apprentice) b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Jamesina Sutherland Granddaughter 6yrs Scholar b. Dunbeath, Caithness

The 1881 census is a bit of a mess on Ancestry, but from what I can gather there still seem to be a number of Sutherland's living in Torbeg (around 10). You could buy the image on Scotland's People to see what it really says, but it looks like David & Margaret may have died and a couple of their daughters are still at the croft?

1881 census - Torbeg, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness
Margret Sutherland Head 53yrs Crofter b. Latheron, Caithness (speaks Gaelic)
Mary Sutherland Sister 40yrs b. Latheron, Caithness (speaks Gaelic)

So you have quite a few names there to track down. I wonder if Jamesina Sutherland is William's sister or cousin? It certainly is a more unique name to try and track down than William. Though I see that on Scotland's People there are still two Jamesina Sutherlands born in Latheron Parish, at about the right time one in 1865 and one in 1866...so you would have to take a chance and pay for the certificates if you wanted to chase that one further.

What a fascinating story, and an intriguing puzzle to try and solve  :)

Jenny
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth,Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill


Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #165 on: Monday 02 November 20 11:24 GMT (UK) »
Hello again mweston...

I had a look for a marriage for an Alexander Sutherland & Jane Sutherland on Scotland's People before 1854, and the only likely one that came up in Caithness was the below:

Alexander Sutherland & Jean Sutherland married 17 Dec 1852 Latheron

Jane and Jean were often interchangeably used in Scotland...so this could be your couple. You would need to order the parish record to see if there is any additional details, say for example his occupation. Though it is unlikely. 

I had a look at the 1851 census as your William's parents must be alive on that one...the only likely Alexander Sutherland I found is below:

1851 census - Achviole, Latheron, Caithness
Alexander Sutherland Head 31yrs Shoemaker b. Latheron, Caithness
Cathrine Sutherland Mother 69yrs b. Latheron, Caithness

I can't see Achviole in Scotland's Places, but Achavrole does come up and it is right next door to Torbeg. So it may be a transcription error in the census return, perhaps it was hard to read. You would have to check the original image on Scotland's People to see, its reference there is 038/15/7. If this is your Alexander Sutherland, he appears not to be the son of David & Margaret Sutherland.

https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/caithness-os-name-books-1871-1873/caithness-volume-06/254

I checked the 1851 census for a Jane/Jean Sutherland of a similar age, preferably with parents David & Margaret in the Latheron Parish...and the closest match I found is below...there may be a few mistranscriptions (Donald/David, Jamesina/Jamima, & Mary/May)...perhaps the census really is hard to read  ???
The reference on Scotland's People is 038/15/4

1851 census - Achviole, Latheron, Caithness
Donald Sutherland Head 55yrs Fisherman b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Wife 52yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Jane Sutherland Dau 27yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
John Sutherland Son 25yrs Fisherman b. Latheron, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Dau 23yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Jamima Sutherland Dau 12yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
May Sutherland Dau 9yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness

There is certainly a Jane there of the right age, and a John that could be 'uncle John Sutherland of NZ' - what do you think?

I checked the 1841 census and the below is the best match for Alexander, unfortunately I couldn't find a good match for Jane or the family of David & Margaret Sutherland though.

1841 census - Tormore, Latheron, Caithness
John Suther'd 60yrs Army P(ensioner) born in county
Catharina Suther'd 55yrs born in county
Alex Suther'd 20yrs Shoemaker born in county
Alex Suther'd 15yrs MS (male servant) born in county

Toremore/Tormore is on the same page in Scotland's Places as the link I popped up for Torbeg/Torebeg - so we are in the right vicinity.

I hope that helps you with some leads at least   ;D

Jenny
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth,Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #166 on: Monday 02 November 20 12:43 GMT (UK) »
Ok....one last post for the night...I promise  ;)

I think the below census returns may relate to your William's parents Alexander and Jean/Jane Sutherland. I don't know why William was always with his grandparents though....I presumed his parents must have died young, but perhaps not  ::)

1861 census - Upper Balchrick, Latheron, Caithness (Scotland's People ref: 038/19/3)
Alexander Sutherland Head 41yrs Shoemaker & Fisherman b. Latheron, Caithness
Jean Sutherland Wife 58yrs (I think this is 38yrs mistranscribed) b. Latheron, Caithness
Cathrine Sutherland Dau 4yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Margart Sutherland Dau 1yr b. Latheron, Caithness

1871 census - Balchrick, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness (Scotland's People ref: 038/15/4)
Alexander Sutherland Head 52yrs Shoemaker b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Jane Sutherland Wife 47yrs Shoemaker's wife b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Catherine Sutherland Dau 15yrs Shoemaker's daughter b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Margaret Sutherland Dau 11yrs Scholar b. Dunbeath, Caithness
Johan Sutherland Dau 4yrs Shoemaker's daughter b. Dunbeath, Caithness

1881 census - Achvroal, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness (Scotland's People ref: 038/15/12)
Alexander Sutherland Head 59yrs Crofter b. Latheron, Caithness (speaks Gaelic)
Jane Sutherland Wife 54yrs b. Latheron, Caithness (speaks Gaelic)
Johan Sutherland Dau 14yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness

1891 census - Achvrole, Dunbeath Estate, Latheron, Caithness (Scotland's People ref: 038/15/9)
Alexander Sutherland Head 70yrs Crofter b. Latheron, Caithness
Catherine Sutherland Dau 34yrs General Servant (domestic) b. Latheron, Caithness
Jamesina Sutherland Granddau 7yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness

What do you think??

The only birth I could find on Ancestry was for Johan the youngest child, but Margaret and Catherine's births should also be recorded after registration (1855).

Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
Name:    Johan Sutherland
Gender:    Female
Birth Date:    1 Feb 1867
Birth Place:    Latheron,Caithness,Scotland
Father:    Alexander Sutherland
Mother:    Jane Sutherland
FHL Film Number:    6035516

I hope that helps...going to go to bed now, or I will be useless at work tomorrow!

Jenny
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth,Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #167 on: Monday 02 November 20 13:26 GMT (UK) »
The only birth I could find on Ancestry was for Johan the youngest child, but Margaret and Catherine's births should also be recorded after registration (1855).

The best place to look for the surviving pre-1855 Scottish baptism and marriage records is Scotland's People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk which also has images of all the events available to download at modest cost. The index is free to search and is complete, E&OE.

There is no point in looking for this information on a third-party web site such as Ancestry, FindMyPast, MyHeritage, FamilySearch etc when it is available free at source.

Births and marriages 1855-1874 are indexed on FamilySearch but original documents are only available at Scotland's People.
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Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #168 on: Monday 02 November 20 21:14 GMT (UK) »
Very true Forfarian, Scotland's People is the only place with a complete index for births post 1855 and the actual certificates of course  ;)

The challenge is sorting out which certificate to purchase when one has a very common name....for example there are 12 Margaret Sutherland's born in Latheron parish, Caithness between 1859 & 1861...one of them is hopefully the daughter of Alexander & Jane Sutherland....but which one? Sadly no Margaret Sutherland births in this time period feature in the indexes on Ancestry or Family Search, just Johan who was born in 1867.

I always search the third party sites as they have parents names listed in the index, to see if I can narrow it down, and increase my hit rate of purchasing the correct one.

I likewise check the indexes on Ancestry for Scottish census returns, even though they are often a poor transcription, as although Scotland's People are the only place to see the actual images, their index does not give family groupings, so you can spend a great deal of money trying to guess the right one for common names.

What's the saying....measure twice, cut once...all the sites have their pluses and minuses  :)
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth,Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

Offline mweston

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #169 on: Monday 02 November 20 23:47 GMT (UK) »
Hi Jenny and Forfarian, oh WOW, I have sifted through all your information and taken on everything you have said, also have the info from Scotlands People.  Where to start...I can confirm that Jamesina Sutherland born 4th February 1865 at Upper Achavrole Dunbeath F: Alexander Sutherland (Shoemaker Journeyman) and M: Jane Sutherland (Maiden Surname: Sutherland) is indeed my William's sister.  On the Certificate is also Alexander and Jane's marriage date of: 17th December 1852 at Latheron (I also got the marriage but only gives me the names and date, no parents unfortunately).  I have been under the impression that, due to all the articles regarding the death of David referring to William as his cousin, that he was related to John and Janet through John being his father's brother.. but maybe now that I know his mother's name was also Sutherland it could be from his mother's side..  It certainly seems that the Alexander and Jane Sutherland from the census are indeed William's parents.. maybe his job as a journeyman took them away a lot? Not sure of the way of things at that time.   Yes, the tree on Ancestry is mine....  From the other trees on Ancestry, John Sutherland's parents were David Sutherland and Margaret Gunn but still looking into that.. there is definitely a connection... again many thanks for all your help I have been able to put a few more pieces back to this puzzle... I'll keep looking and get back to you with what I find.. Cheers Margaret

Offline mweston

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #170 on: Tuesday 03 November 20 00:15 GMT (UK) »
Hi Jenny, also found this to confirm the parentage of John Sutherland (Uncle) "Donald Sutherland was the  twelfth child of   David Sutherland ( abt 1798 1876) and Margaret Gunn and was the brother of John Sutherland who  settled at Mt Grey Downs in New Zealand  Donald was born on 30th August 1835 at Dunbeath, Latheron, Caithness, Scotland  On his death certificate Donald's parents are given as David Sutherland (a cooper?) and Margaret Gunn ( nee Sutherland)" so infact we have two Uncles in NZ at the time.... Cheers Margaret