Author Topic: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands  (Read 87510 times)

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #198 on: Sunday 08 November 20 08:40 GMT (UK) »
Just for your information....there are 2 other John Sutherland's in Latheron Parish Caithness in the 1841 census, who are also Army Pensioners....

1841 census - Nottingham, Latheron, Caithness

John Sutherland    55yrs Army P(ensioner) Born Scotland
Elizabeth Sutherland    30yrs Born Scotland
Margaret Sutherland    15yrs Born Caithness
James Sutherland    10yrs Born Caithness
William Sutherland    8yrs Born Caithness
John Sutherland    5yrs Born Caithness
N K    2 Weeks Born Caithness

1841 census - Mountpleasant, Latheron, Caithness

John Sutherland    55yrs Army P(ensioner) Born Caithness
Ann Sutherland            35yrs Born Caithness
George Sutherland    8yrs Born Caithness
Ann Sutherland            6yrs Born Caithness

So it is equally possible that either of these men died in 1849  :-\

Were there any other details on the Chelsea Pensioner record?

Jenny
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #199 on: Sunday 08 November 20 08:47 GMT (UK) »
Actually, perhaps not...they both seem to still be there in the 1851 census...ages are a bit out though  ;)

1851 census - Ashbeg, Latheron, Caithness

John Sutherland Head 57yrs Chelsea Pensioner b. Kildonan, Sutherland
Elizabeth Sutherland Wife 43yrs b. Fearn, Ross
Margaret Sutherland Dau 25yrs House Servant b. Latheron, Caithness
William Sutherland Son 18yrs Ag Lab b. Latheron, Caithness
John C Sutherland Son 15yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Catherine M Sutherland Dau 9yrs Scholar b. Latheron, Caithness
Janet Sutherland Dau 6yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Hector H Sutherland Son 3yrs b. Latheron, Caithness
Elizabeth Sutherland Dau 4mths b. Latheron, Caithness

1851 census - Village Road, Lybster, Latheron, Caithness

John Sutherland Head 70yrs Chelsea Pensioner b. Kildonnan, Sutherland
Christian Mackenzie Wife 57yrs Spinster b. Rogart, Sutherland (not sure what is going on here?)
George Sutherland Son 19yrs Journeyman Shoemaker b. Halkirk, Caithness
George Sinclair Lodger 23yrs Journeyman Mason b. Thurso, Caithness

Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

Offline mweston

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #200 on: Sunday 08 November 20 11:34 GMT (UK) »
Hi Jenny, ok, bugger on the marriage cert... have used all my credits will have to wait a while now.  Thanks for the info on John Sutherland will look more into that.  Cheers Margaret

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #201 on: Sunday 08 November 20 20:55 GMT (UK) »
no worries, easily done....as I've mentioned before Sutherlands are thick in these parts ;)

FYI there are also other John Sutherland Chelsea pensioners/Army pensioners that are born in Latheron but living elsewhere on the census returns...did the pensioner you found that died in 1849 live in Latheron or elsewhere? Would be great to have the details so that we can try and prove or discount it.

Jenny
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill


Offline countingnames

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #202 on: Monday 16 November 20 17:10 GMT (UK) »
Hello,
I am currently trying to track down some of my ancestors.
 
My 3rd great-grandfather is Peter Sutherland, born in Berriedale, Latheron in 1816. He was married to Jane Murray in 1855 ('in the manner of the Free Church of Scotland'). He was a farm-owner and later a maltser. He died in Putleneytown, Caithness, Scotland in 1877.
 
I am currently finding it difficult to find information about his parents.
 
From the death and marriage certificate of Peter Sutherland: I know that his parents are John Sutherland and Catherine Sutherland (maternal name: Sutherland). I know John Sutherland was a farmer/fisherman. I also know that the parents were both dead before the end of 1855.
 
I think I found a 1841 census entry listing John Sutherland and Catherine Sutherland living together with their son Peter Sutherland in Parkside, Latheron. However there is a 35 year age gap between the John Sutherland (90 years old) and Catherine Sutherland (55 years old) listed in this record and also a 65 year gap between John Sutherland (90 years old) and his potential son Peter Sutherland (25 years old, my great grand-grandfather). There is also a Catherine Bain listed in the census record, however I know she is not the mother of Peter, given she died after 1855, although she too was married to a John Sutherland (listed as a shoemaker in Catherine Bain's death certificate).
 
I am wondering if anyone knows anything that can point me into the right direction, since I am currently stuck in my research. In particular I would like to know who the parents of John Sutherland and Catherine Sutherland are, so I can continue to expand my family tree.

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #203 on: Sunday 21 March 21 02:52 GMT (UK) »
Hi Countingnames,

So sorry, I have only just seen your post...for some reason I didn't get a notification  ::)

Sutherland is an extremely common name, as are John and Catherine. You are VERY lucky that your Peter Sutherland married just after Registration otherwise it would have been near impossible to get back any further.

As it stands though, there appear to be a number of Peter Sutherlands born in Latheron Parish around that time. I presume that the approx. birth date of 1816 is from his marriage certificate? I can see his death in the index at Scotland's People as below, and it shows an approx. birth of 1813:

SUTHERLAND
PETER   
64yrs (born abt 1813)
SUTHERLAND (Mother's maiden name)
1877
043/ 87
Wick

The newspaper entry for his death also states he was 64yrs of age:

3 May 1877 - John o' Groat Journal (Wick, Caithness, Scotland)
DEATHS: At Huddart Street, Pulteneytown, on the 28th ult., Mr Peter Sutherland, maltman, aged 64 years.

The index entry on Scotland's People for his marriage of course does not gives clues to his birth date:

PETER SUTHERLAND
JANE MURRAY
1855
043/2 18
Wick Landward

I am presuming from the death notice that this is you family in the census (from Freecen), which gives approx. birth dates of 1811 & 1813 respectively:

1861 - Wick, Caithness

SUTHERLAND    Peter    Head    M    M    50    Maltster    CAI    Latheron       
SUTHERLAND    Jane    Wife    M    F    47    Maltster's Wife    CAI    Dunnet       
SUTHERLAND    Alexr    Son    -    M    4    Maltster's Son    CAI    Wick       
SUTHERLAND    Peter Jas    Son    -    M    2    Maltster's Son    CAI    Wick

1871 - Huddart Street, Wick, Caithness

SUTHERLAND    Peter    Head    M    M    58    Maltman    CAI    Berridale       
SUTHERLAND    Jane    Wife    M    F    54    -    CAI    Dunnet       
SUTHERLAND    Peter    Son    -    M    12    Scholar    CAI    Wick       
SUTHERLAND    George    Son    -    M    9    Scholar    CAI    Wick       
MOODIE    Janet    Lodger    W    F    83    -    CAI    Dunnet

It also looks like they lost their eldest son in 1861, aged just 4yrs.

SUTHERLAND
ALEXANDER
4yrs
MURRAY (Mother's maiden name)
1861
043/1 101
Wick Burgh

Trying to locate Peter Sutherland prior to his marriage is more of a challenge....what does the marriage certificate say about his residence and occupation in 1855?

From Freecen perhaps the best match in the 1851 census is below, with an approx. birth date of 1816 and occupation of a farm labourer, though it is not perfect:

1851 - Killminster, Wick, Caithness

HORNE    William M    Head    U    M    22    Farm Labourer    CAI    Canisbay       
SUTHERLAND    Peter    -    U    M    33    Farm Labourer    CAI    Latheron       
ANGUS    James    -    U    M    20    Agricultural Labourer    CAI    Dunnet       
CALDER    John    -    U    M    19    Ag. Lab. (Shepherd)    CAI    Wick       
RONALDSON    James    -    U    M    14    Herd    CAI    Dunnet       
SUTHERLAND    Jane    -    U    F    21    House Servant    CAI    Wick

and the best match for 1841 is the census you found, though the record on Freecen does not show a Catherine Bain present....have you seen the original on Scotland's People? Is there a transcription error on Freecen?

1841 - Parkside, Latheron, Caithness

SUTHERLAND    John    M    90    Farmer    CAI    
SUTHERLAND    Catherine    F    55       CAI    
SUTHERLAND    Peter    M    25    Ag. Labourer    CAI    
SUTHERLAND    John    M    20    Ag. Labourer    CAI    
SUTHERLAND    Elizabeth    F    25       CAI    
ROSS    Alexr    M    5       CAI    
ROSS    Catherine    F    3       CAI

It is possible that the age of John Sutherland in this record has been mistranscribed, or that it was a second marriage much later in life for him, he could also be the grandfather or another type of relative, as no relationships are given at this time. I would recommend looking at the original record, and perhaps trying to chase the other siblings or the Ross children (they may be his nieces & nephews).

The Latheron/Berriedale baptisms are terribly sparse, and on Scotland's People I cannot see a Peter Sutherland with a father 'John Sutherland' baptised between the years of 1800-1820 at all. There are lots of John's and Elizabeth's though, and with no mother's name given in baptisms at this time it is impossible to tell if any of them match the possible siblings in the 1841 census return.

Jenny
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #204 on: Sunday 21 March 21 02:54 GMT (UK) »
What I can see on Scotland's People are possible baptisms for the Ross children though...to Alexander Ross & Elizabeth Sutherland

ALEXANDER ROSS
ALEXANDER ROSS/ELIZABETH SUTHERLAND (parents)
M
28/09/1833 (baptism)
038/
20 87
Latheron

CATHERINE ROSS
ALEXANDER ROSS/ELIZABETH SUTHERLAND (parents)
F
26/08/1836 (baptism)
038/
20 139
Latheron

It looks like the couple married in 1832:

ALEXANDER ROSS/ELIZABETH SUTHERLAND
21/12/1832
038/
30 39
Latheron

I would say that Alexander Ross died before the 1841 census, but Elizabeth may have lived for quite some time, if the below death record pertains to her:

ROSS (or SUTHERLAND)
ELIZABETH
84yrs
1900 (born abt 1816)
038/ 77
Latheron

The death is likely to be her as I cannot see any other Ross/Elizabeth Sutherland marriages in Latheron/Caithness, and she appears to feature in the following census returns:

1851 - Smerlie, Latheron, Caithness

ROSS    Elisabeth    Head    W    F    37    Spinner    CAI    Latheron       
ROSS    Catherine    Dau    U    F    13    Pauper    CAI    Latheron       
CAMPBELL Margt    Lodger    U    F    42    Spinner    CAI    Latheron

1861 - Smarlie, Latheron, Caithness

ROSS    Elizabeth    Head    W    F    49    Nitter    CAI    Berridale       
ROSS    Alexander    Son    U    M    28    Journeyman Joiner    CAI    Lybster       
ROSS    Catherine    Dau    U    F    25    Dressmaker    CAI    Lybster

But then I lose her trail....perhaps worth ordering the death certificate to see if her parents are also given as John Sutherland and Catherine Sutherland...

I don't know if I helped any.....but maybe I've given you have a few more leads to chase  ;)

Jenny
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill

Offline countingnames

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #205 on: Sunday 28 March 21 14:31 BST (UK) »
Hello Jenny,

Thanks for the in-depth reply and taking the time to help me. We have the original marriage certificate. Peter was 39 in 1855, so he was born in 1816. In 1855, the certificate says he was living in Reiss, Wick. He was working as a farm manager. According to Freecen, Catherine Bain was living at the next residence with other Sutherlands at the house/street called 'Parkside'. I agree, I think things might be clarified if I gained a copy of the original census record. Thank you a lot for the information about the Ross children, it is good to know their relation to Elizabeth. I will definitely think about unlocking her death certificate to see who were her parents.

Hi Countingnames,

So sorry, I have only just seen your post...for some reason I didn't get a notification  ::)

Sutherland is an extremely common name, as are John and Catherine. You are VERY lucky that your Peter Sutherland married just after Registration otherwise it would have been near impossible to get back any further.

As it stands though, there appear to be a number of Peter Sutherlands born in Latheron Parish around that time. I presume that the approx. birth date of 1816 is from his marriage certificate? I can see his death in the index at Scotland's People as below, and it shows an approx. birth of 1813:

SUTHERLAND
PETER   
64yrs (born abt 1813)
SUTHERLAND (Mother's maiden name)
1877
043/ 87
Wick

The newspaper entry for his death also states he was 64yrs of age:

3 May 1877 - John o' Groat Journal (Wick, Caithness, Scotland)
DEATHS: At Huddart Street, Pulteneytown, on the 28th ult., Mr Peter Sutherland, maltman, aged 64 years.

The index entry on Scotland's People for his marriage of course does not gives clues to his birth date:

PETER SUTHERLAND
JANE MURRAY
1855
043/2 18
Wick Landward

I am presuming from the death notice that this is you family in the census (from Freecen), which gives approx. birth dates of 1811 & 1813 respectively:

1861 - Wick, Caithness

SUTHERLAND    Peter    Head    M    M    50    Maltster    CAI    Latheron       
SUTHERLAND    Jane    Wife    M    F    47    Maltster's Wife    CAI    Dunnet       
SUTHERLAND    Alexr    Son    -    M    4    Maltster's Son    CAI    Wick       
SUTHERLAND    Peter Jas    Son    -    M    2    Maltster's Son    CAI    Wick

1871 - Huddart Street, Wick, Caithness

SUTHERLAND    Peter    Head    M    M    58    Maltman    CAI    Berridale       
SUTHERLAND    Jane    Wife    M    F    54    -    CAI    Dunnet       
SUTHERLAND    Peter    Son    -    M    12    Scholar    CAI    Wick       
SUTHERLAND    George    Son    -    M    9    Scholar    CAI    Wick       
MOODIE    Janet    Lodger    W    F    83    -    CAI    Dunnet

It also looks like they lost their eldest son in 1861, aged just 4yrs.

SUTHERLAND
ALEXANDER
4yrs
MURRAY (Mother's maiden name)
1861
043/1 101
Wick Burgh

Trying to locate Peter Sutherland prior to his marriage is more of a challenge....what does the marriage certificate say about his residence and occupation in 1855?

From Freecen perhaps the best match in the 1851 census is below, with an approx. birth date of 1816 and occupation of a farm labourer, though it is not perfect:

1851 - Killminster, Wick, Caithness

HORNE    William M    Head    U    M    22    Farm Labourer    CAI    Canisbay       
SUTHERLAND    Peter    -    U    M    33    Farm Labourer    CAI    Latheron       
ANGUS    James    -    U    M    20    Agricultural Labourer    CAI    Dunnet       
CALDER    John    -    U    M    19    Ag. Lab. (Shepherd)    CAI    Wick       
RONALDSON    James    -    U    M    14    Herd    CAI    Dunnet       
SUTHERLAND    Jane    -    U    F    21    House Servant    CAI    Wick

and the best match for 1841 is the census you found, though the record on Freecen does not show a Catherine Bain present....have you seen the original on Scotland's People? Is there a transcription error on Freecen?

1841 - Parkside, Latheron, Caithness

SUTHERLAND    John    M    90    Farmer    CAI    
SUTHERLAND    Catherine    F    55       CAI    
SUTHERLAND    Peter    M    25    Ag. Labourer    CAI    
SUTHERLAND    John    M    20    Ag. Labourer    CAI    
SUTHERLAND    Elizabeth    F    25       CAI    
ROSS    Alexr    M    5       CAI    
ROSS    Catherine    F    3       CAI

It is possible that the age of John Sutherland in this record has been mistranscribed, or that it was a second marriage much later in life for him, he could also be the grandfather or another type of relative, as no relationships are given at this time. I would recommend looking at the original record, and perhaps trying to chase the other siblings or the Ross children (they may be his nieces & nephews).

The Latheron/Berriedale baptisms are terribly sparse, and on Scotland's People I cannot see a Peter Sutherland with a father 'John Sutherland' baptised between the years of 1800-1820 at all. There are lots of John's and Elizabeth's though, and with no mother's name given in baptisms at this time it is impossible to tell if any of them match the possible siblings in the 1841 census return.

Jenny

Offline JenClark

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Re: Frustrated Sutherland Seeks Sutherlands
« Reply #206 on: Monday 29 March 21 09:57 BST (UK) »
No worries, good luck with it all!

Sutherlands can certainly be a challenge to pin down....give me a unique last name any day  ;)
Clark, Sommerlad, Bowden, Barrett, Griffey, Sayers, Bridge, Walters, Pollard, Capel, Dibble, James, Lingard, Mensforth, Watts, Rutherford, Stainton, Chatterton, Tubbs, Thompson, Fulton, Booth, Sellwood, Edwards, Pitcher, Creech, Johns, Phillips, Roberts, Keast, Tregonning, Mason, Lancefield, Ibberson, Green, Case, Cook, Dunham, Porter, Pope, Hall, Welsh, Hellefield, Warburton, Fletcher, Foster, Stiles, Tait, Nicoll, Sutherland, McIntyre, Cole, Neal, Ladlow, Bellamy, Castleton, Barker, Yuill