Smiths of Mitcham in Surrey

[chellin2]

Hi I am doing my family tree and I have come across on the census records a lot of Hawkers which I presume to be gypsies.  My great great grandfather was called Josiah Smith and lived at Half Acre Row in Mitcham in the 1881 census, he was married to Alice and had five children called Fred, William, John, Phoebe and Nelson and Josiah.
My great grandfather was also called Josiah Smith and married Lemantamia Gardner who signed my grandmothers birth certificate with a X.  They had six children Ada, Lemantamia, Johnney, Vanslow, and Pheobe who was my grandmother.  All these people were Hawkers and I know they had horses.
Would anyone out there know of these Smiths as I cannot get any further back than the 1881 census and I dont think that Half Acre Row was a house.  I would appreciate any help that anyone has to offer
Thanks Chellin 2

[Nicky]

Hi and welcome to Rootschat.

I have had a look at the 1871 census and have found this family which I feel must be them! Although Josiah is listed as Joseph, but wife is correct and so are children, although again Josiah is Joseph, it was not uncommon to get names wrong on census though.

1871 census

address is hard to read but look likes 18 Dawsons Road

Joseph Smith, head, age 35, general dealer, born Kent Woolwich
Alice, wife, age 35, basket maker born Berkshire??? (cant read)
Frederick, son, age 12 born Surrey Wandsworth
Joseph, son, age 10, born Surrey Streatham
William,son, age 4 born Surrey Croydon
John, son, age 1 born Surrey Croydon
Edward Cooper, visitor, age 42, basket maker born Kent Plumstead
Henrietta Cooper,visitor, age 60, basket maker born Kent Plumstead
Frederick Lane, visitor, age 26, ?? worker born Berkshire Reading
Alice Smith, visitor, age 12, born Surrey

RG10 846
folio 53 page 29
Croydon, Surrey

I will see what else I can find.

Nicky

[chellin2]

Oh thank you so much Nicky, that is amazing what you have found already, that must be them.  I live in Australia and I am finding this research very hard.  So do you think they were gypsies???
     I have just found another link on here too, there is someone researching Lemantamia Gardner.

[Nicky]

HI
I am not convinced they were gypsies, certainly not from1871 onwards.

I have been looking through earlier census, as yet not much success but have found this very likely marriage.

December quarter 1858
In the district of Malling (in Kent)
Vol 2a Page 591
Josiah Smith and Alice Lane

Now on the 1871 census there is a Frederick Lane visiting, could he be a brother?

Will see if I can find Alice pre her marriage.

To confirm that this is right you may be advised to purchase a birth certificate of one of Josiah and Alices children. This would confirm Alice's maiden name.

Nicky

[Nicky]

Hi again

This could be Alice in 1841 but I would certainly get some evidence that this is the correct family.

1841 census

Henry Matthews, age 25, hair dresser, not born in county
Elizabeth Lane, age 35, ind, not born in county
William Lane, age 12, not born in county
Elizabeth Lane,age 10, not born in county
Alice Lane, age 8, born in county
Alfred Lane, age 6 born in county
Emily Lane, age 3 born in county
Amelia age 1 born in county (Amelia' surname is not given so not sure if a Lane or a Matthews)

HO 107 33 6
folio 5 page 4
Newbury Berkshire

and then the 1851 census

Henry Matthews, head, age 35, hair dresser born Middlesex St Lukes
Elizabeth Matthews, wife, age 46, born Middlesex St Lukes
Henry Matthews, son, age 9, scholar born Berkshire Newbury
William Lane, son in law, age 22, hair dresser born Middlesex London
Alice Lane, dau in law, age 17, dress maker born Berkshire Newbury
Emily Lane, dau in law, age 13, born Berkshire Newbury

HO 107 1685
folio 330 page 33
Newbury Berkshire

Son and daughter in law was often used as step children.

Nicky

[Necromancer]

Lots of Info on the Internet about Gypsies (original 'Travellers') vs Hawkers etc. Actually quite fascinating as their roots can be traced back to the 9th Century - Indus origin, with Sanskrit figuring in the Romany/Romanes language, liberally sprinkled with the local tongue, Elizabethan slang and more modern idioms !

Try Google !

[casalguidi]

Hi Chellin

They look very much like travellers/Gypsies to me - given the occupations and surnames SMITH/COOPER and even LANE.  Many "travellers" lived in houses for part of the year.

Casalguidi

[chellin2]

Hi Nicky

That defintiely sounds like them to me as I can remember my nan saying they had a florist shop called Mathews in Tooting and that it was tied in with the family.  When it says born out of country does that mean they were immigrants as my old aunt insists that we had Spanish in us but thats not a Spanish name is it?? Dont want to sound stupid but how do I find out the folio number to order one of the childrens birth certificates??  It looks like they were not married doesnt it but some of the children were called Lane and some Mathews.
Thanks again
Chellin

[chellin2]

Hi Casalguidi

Thanks for your reply, being they were born out of the country maybe thats why they were hawkers but I still have this strong feeling they were gypsies especially the Smiths.

Chellin2