Author Topic: Anyone with Something Similar  (Read 12893 times)

Offline Aley

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Anyone with Something Similar
« on: Tuesday 23 January 07 02:34 GMT (UK) »
Can anyone give info about this Coat of Arms? I was told it is the Ross Coat of Arms.
I read it was William de Ross of Ross the had the 3 Loins Rampant. Where did the rest of the design come from? What are the colors?

Aley
Bott from Yorkshire, Davison from Durham, Ross from Inverness, Scotland, Robinson from England, Simpson from Scotland, Elliott from Yorkshire

Offline lcsnor

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 23 January 07 03:50 GMT (UK) »
The middle part is Ross of Ross.  "Gules, three lions rampant Argent", which means 3 silver lions on a red background. 
Where did this come from?

Heraldry permits the amalgamation of the arms of two families in certain circumstances and the addition of the checked pattern could be something like that.  It's very difficult to tell what the colours are without knowing as they could be anything. This could be a legitimate family arms or it could be a "made up" coat of arms put together by someone who liked the idea of their own coat of arms and drew one up.  The 3 lions may be coincidence and nothing to do with Ross.  The wolf or fox looks a little lost also.

If you don't get a reply I'll send it to my Dad he's a bit of a heraldry buff but won't be at home for the next 6 weeks or so. 

Louise
Desperately seeking:
Martha Ann Keily - Limerick/Woolwich mid 1800s
Mary Jane Hawkins - Bridgwater c.1835
George Gulson - Warmfield or Mansfield 1790s

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Offline KathMc

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 23 January 07 21:02 GMT (UK) »
Louise, I might have one to send for your dad to take a look at too, if he wouldn't mind. I received a coat of arms a while ago on my Warwickshire Collins line. Not sure exactly what time it came about for the family, but one was Shakespeare's lawyer, one was involved in the building of some places in Warwickshire (Cathederal, castle) and from these came William Job Collins and Edward Treacher Collins. I would love to know what it means.

Kath
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Offline patrish

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 23 January 07 21:39 GMT (UK) »
I cant tell you anything about you actual coat of arms but this is how they came in being.

Surnames were first introduced by the Normans in the 11th century and were divided roughly into four classifications... Locations, taken from places of origin...Occupations, from trade or profession.. Nick names, describing physical and mental character... Patronymic, taking the first name of of the father as the surname of the son... At about the same time, the Crusades began and with so many men gathered in body armour, recognition was very difficult

So the private Armies began using brightly colored symbols on shields and banners...  Later these devices were displayed on Coat Armour, a loose coat worn over the armour...  To avoid duplication the Knights Heralds began to record the different shield designs and painted them on rolls of parchment called Rolls of Arms.
this information is Crown Copyright. from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk   London Hall, Thurston Stanley, Phillips, Ayrton, White, Morrish, Smith.    West Ham/Barking Saint,Briggs,   Essex  Barker,   Hampshire  Kill, Kent Spong,   U.S.A Earp, Scotland/Cumbria Templeton, Devon Morrish, Chudley


Offline Little Nell

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 23 January 07 21:54 GMT (UK) »
The shading on the checked background implies that the colours were red and white i.e. gules and argent.  However, the motto is blank and the crest is not that associated with the Clan Ross coat of arms.  Theirs is a hand holding a laurel wreath.

The way this is put together is a little odd.  A coat of arms may be placed on top of another like this to indicate marriage between two families.  In this case the Ross arms would be of the wife and she is an heiress in her own right.  So maybe the crest (i.e. the wolf/fox) comes from the husband's family.

Mr Al Fayed bought Balnagowan Castle, which had originally been a Ross stronghold centuries ago, and put the coat of arms of the castle gates.  He got into toruble with the Lord Lyon King of Arms and had to remove them because he wass not entitled to them.  He was allowed to leave any coat of arms which had become an integral part of the castle decorations e.g. carved in the masonry.

Beware!

Nell
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Offline yn9man

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 23 January 07 22:06 GMT (UK) »

Surnames were first introduced by the Normans in the 11th century and were divided roughly into four classifications... Locations, taken from places of origin...Occupations, from trade or profession.. Nick names, describing physical and mental character... Patronymic, taking the first name of of the father as the surname of the son... At about the same time, the Crusades began and with so many men gathered in body armour, recognition was very difficult

So the private Armies began using brightly colored symbols on shields and banners... Later these devices were displayed on Coat Armour, a loose coat worn over the armour... To avoid duplication the Knights Heralds began to record the different shield designs and painted them on rolls of parchment called Rolls of Arms.

Thanks for your explanation. I have been wondering about how or why coats of arms came about.

My paternal grandmother has a coat of arms with 3 boars (possibly elephants). Must be from the character classification ... stubborn and bull headed.  :)

yn9man
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Offline Aley

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 25 January 07 19:13 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Louise,

I sure would like to know what your Dad can tell me about this.

So it might be or not a Coat of Arms associated with the Ross Clan.
It just could be that someone made it up, don't know.

Aley
Bott from Yorkshire, Davison from Durham, Ross from Inverness, Scotland, Robinson from England, Simpson from Scotland, Elliott from Yorkshire

Offline lcsnor

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 25 January 07 19:17 GMT (UK) »
Aley,
I'd really like to know what it came from - was it in a book, printed on something?  And how did you come by it?  Was it related to a particular family line that you already know of?

thanks, Louise
Desperately seeking:
Martha Ann Keily - Limerick/Woolwich mid 1800s
Mary Jane Hawkins - Bridgwater c.1835
George Gulson - Warmfield or Mansfield 1790s

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline behindthefrogs

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Re: Anyone with Something Similar
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 25 January 07 20:04 GMT (UK) »
The crest of the fox could come from any one of about 19 families, which do not include the Ross family.

The border could arise in a number of ways.

In the 13th century or earlier as the result of the marriage of a Ross female with who ever owned the chequered arms.  After that it could only happen if the male Ross line died out and the wife as a result was entitled the arms.

The other possibilty is that it is a Scottish coat of arms and the border shows cadency.  In this case it would be a son younger than than the fifth son as the border doesn't indicate any of the first five sons, but this is a guess.

David
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