Bachellier

[richarde1979]

Hi Richarde,
Thanks a lot for adding that information on Gilbert.  I did find that French Hospital report in 1837 which gave his age as 82 which fits in with the census returns making his birth year around 1754/55.  However, Peter and Mary's son Gilbert was baptised in 1734 so we have a 20 yr discrepancy.  This is why I never thought it was the same Gilbert although it's not a name that appears very frequently in any of the records.
Do you have any ideas on that?
Thanks for your time,
Val

Hi Val

Quite right I'd not noticed the age descrepancy..see the problem. I'll have a further look and let you know if I find anything.

[richarde1979]

"The info you gave Val and I about the Charenton Huguenot Temple records is fascinating as well. It must be very frustrating for you not to be able to get any further back, when you know where all that knowledge is stored."

Re that Mabel Lucy, yes is frustrating. He said the Huguenot Charenton records did contain over 60 Bachelier marriages and the same baptisms, so the answers are no doubt there to be found. The Bacheliers of Meaux were among the earliest followers of the reformed faith in France, in fact Meaux was where the faith was first established in France. A Bachelier, possibly a relation of ours, was head of the congregation there when an attempt was made to kidnap the Dauphin in the French Religious Wars, an event which contributed to the St Bartholomews Day Massacre. There's signs of an interesting story for us there waiting to be dug up in detail one day.

[MabelLucy]

Hi Richarde

It's been quite a while, but here I am again. I'm now struggling with Judith Bachelier, married to Anthoine Deverdun, your's and my ancester (my 6 x great grandmother). I know you wrote that you thought she might have come to England via Haarlem, Holland fro Meaux and that Anthoine came via Haarlem. You thought she might possibly be the daughter of a Jean Bachelier and Judith his wife, who also came via Haarlem.

I have a problem in that I have some recorded notes from the Hackney Union Workhouse Archive (unfortunately not complete as I copied them in a hurry from those that my cousin had when I visited her place in England two years ago). The notes refer to James Feecham - son of Samuel Feecham and  Mary Deverdun, who was in turn the daughter of Susanna Bachelier and Timothy Deverdun - son of Anthoine Deverdun and Judith Bachelier. The notes, however are typewritten so easy to understand. James was applying for admittance to the workhouse. It is recorded as follows:

" James Feecham, unmarried, son of Samuel Feecham of Woods Close aforesaid; iii. On mother's side, whose Great Grandfather was a French Refugee from Normandy in France - left a great deal of property thereof. His Great Grandmother was very young at that time, was in the family way with his Grandmother. His Great Grandfather's name was Samuel Bachellier. His Grandmother married a Mr Diverdine a French man, they both had French Committee money and their son Timothy Diverdine (his uncle) was deaf and dumb and received both his father and mother's money as long as he lived".

As you see, this doesn't quite fit in with the family tree I presently have, as I have Susanna's parents as Paul Bachelier (1680) and Marianne Gaucheron (his second wife, the first bing Esther Saumon). That makes Paul Bachellier his great grandfather - not Samuel Bachelier as written above. I know you will be interested in this as it is your history as well. If you have any thoughts on it I would love to hear them.

Many thanks
Jenny

[VALEMBURY]

Hi Jenny,
I hope you don't mind me contacting you only I received an e-mail from Roots with the message you sent to Richarde, as it was in connection with the Bachellier family in which I had registered my interest.
I haven't played around with my 'French Connection' for a while so had to read up on it again and was interested to read that Paul Bachellier married a second time to Marianne Gaucheron.  I had always wondered how she fitted in.  Also, there seems to be 2 Paul births registered to them, 1709 and 1711 - have you assumed this was a clerical error?  I take it the mother of Paul (above) and Marie 1713 was Esther, and the other 9 or 10 were Marianne's.
I am directly descended from Paul 1711 who married Marie Magdelaine Finet on 29/5/1742, 7th child down Elisabeth Ann b. 6/10/1754.  She married Gilbert Goullee 5/11/1777 and I have been mostly interested in the Goullee family of which there are hundreds, probably the same for the Bachelliers.  Do you happen to have come across Gilbert on your travels through the records as I have had a real problem establishing a baptism for him.  I think his grandparents were Pierre (Peter) Goullee (his father Timothee - refugee from Normandy) and Marie (Mary) Gilbert, and his parents were Gilbert and Frances ?.
I look forward to hearing from you even if you can't help - it's always worth a try.
Best wishes
Val White

[MabelLucy]

Hi Val

Nice to hear from you. I have Gilbert on my tree and I have one extra wife besides Elizabeth (Mary Rising - married 15 May 1814 at St Giles without Cripplegate) and another lady (Hannah Leech) with whom he had banns read on 10 April 1814 at St George the Matyr, Southwark. Unless there were two Gilbert Goullees around that area at the beginning of 1814, he sure was a busy boy! Elizabeth's death date is January 1814!! He was listed as a widower for both ladies and they were listed as widows. You may well know about those, or I may have it wrong and he may not be the only Gilbert Goullee of that age around at that time. I have realised that his probable father was Gilbert as well, so it could well have been him that was connected to one or other of these women. I'll try and do a bit more detective work.

I haven't been able to find anything else for him, but I didn't know his parents' names or grandparent. I doubt I will be able to find anything if you can't, but will keep looking and certainly let you know if I come across anything.

I sorted out the Esther Saumon/Marianne Gaucheron plus the two Pauls problems with the help of someone I came across from the same family. It certainly makes sense that that is where Marianne fits in. I have the two Pauls and Maria as the children of Esther - the rest are Marianne's. The first Paul (1709) is thought to have died about 1710. That leaves Paul 1711, who married Mary Finet.
That all makes sense as well and has set to rest a troublesome mystery with regards all those Pauls and what to do about the two wives. All I have to resolve now is the ongoing problem of Judith Bachelier's parentage (mentioned before here) and man of mystery Samuel Feecham - my grandmother wrote that the French family name was FeChamp - which ties in with Feecham, but I can't find any FeChamps around at that time (Samuel was a weaver so it probably follows he was Huguenot as he was connected with them and married one of the Deverduns). My grandmother went to the French Brothers School, 233 Shaftsbury Avenue when she was 10 until she was 16. If you come across anything that may be connected I would be grateful for your input.


Best wishes to you also
Jenny Young

[richarde1979]

Hello Jenny

Apologies for the slight delay in getting back to you, been away over the weekend.

There does indeed seem to be question marks over the the parentage of both Judith and Susanne Bachelier.

Susanne's marriage to Timothy Deverdun at Saint Dunstan, Stepney 23 July 1749, does not give any possible indication of her parentage. However Susanne Bachelier, the daughter of Paul Bachelier and Marie Gaucheron, baptised 13 August 1727 at Threadneedle Street, would seem the only obvious candidate to be her, and this seems to be given some weight by Paul Bachelier appearing as the godfather to the only child the couple themselves had baptised at Threadneedle Street, their second daughter Susanne Deverdun in 1753.

However as you rightly point out when the couple's grandson James Feecham applied to the French Hospital London in 1856, he gave the following, rather different, account of his descent:

On Mother's side, whos[e] Great Grandfather was a French Refugee from Normandy in France -Left a great deal of property thereof. His Great Grand Mother was very young at that time was in tha Family way with his Grand Mother. His Great Grand Father's name was Samuel Bachellier. His Grand Mother married a Mr. Diverdine, a French Man, they both had French
Committee Money and their Son Timothy Diverdine (his Uncle) was Deaf and Dumb and received both his Father and Mother's Money as long as he lived. He died the 12th of March 1813 and his aunt Susan Hollett had the Cocoa (Coqueau) money and the money from the French Church every Christmas. She died November 1847 and his mother's name was Mary Diverdine who married a Mr. Samuel Feecham. She died April 6 1829.

This seems to be the same account later fowarded to the Hackney Union, when he was transferred from the Hospital to the Workhouse.

Incidently a year earlier another grandchild of the couple, James's first cousin, Susanna Reynolds, (daughter of Peter Hollet and Susanne Deverdun, born 1778 Wheelers Street, Spitalfields) had also applied to the French Hospital giving a similar account:

[French Decent] On Mother's side who was a Daughter of Timothy Diverdine who married Susan Bachelier, which Susan Bachelier came from Normandy in France with her Father (my Great Grandfather) when she was 2 years of age.

These accounts then seem to have been copied over and again for later family members own subsequent applications to the French Hospital.

The problem I have with these accounts are they suggest Susanne was born in France and came to England with her father, Samuel, in what would have been around approximately 1730. I can find no evidence whatsoever of any Bachelier's coming to London from France at this sort of date, or indeed, a Samuel Bachelier coming from France at ANY date.

This raises the question of just how reliable the grandchildren's accounts are?

It must be taken into account that they appear to have been made from memory, in old age, and wern't supported by any documentation in either petition. James did not even give his own account himself,  his application notes "Petitioner labours under an impediment of speech and in appearance seems helpless - was attended by his Sister when he presented". Susanna also states the family was from Normandy, but all other accounts  trace them from the Paris outskirts and Picardy, so that, at least, would  appear to be a mistake.  Also it seems unlikely either ever met the grandmother in question, she almost certainly died before both were born. I do not have an exact date, for this, but she had her last child 1761, and her husband Timothy was having children with his second wife Elizabeth Cooley from at least 1774, (who he eventually married  in 1789 two years before his own death, being noted as a widower at time of the ceremony).

I wonder if in fact the identification of 'Samuel' Bachelier is just then a simple mistake, especially as the name was so prominent on their Feecham side?

Also they were of course both great-grandchildren of Judith Bachelier, their grandfather Timothy Deverdun's mother. She was born about 1683, and did likely flee France (whoever her parents ultimately were) at the time the Charenton Huguenot Temple was destroyed, Nov 1685, when she was indeed two years of age. Therefore I rather suspect the grandchildren have unwittingly meshed together the details told to them, by their respective parents, of their Bachelier great grandmother (Judith), and Bachelier grandmother (Susanne), into one tale, common enough in family lore passed down orally, and perhaps understandable as they had same surname, and they would never have met either, both having died well before their births. Can't be certain that is the case of course, but it seems quite plausible.

Regards

Richard

   

[richarde1979]

Hi again Jenny

Just realised I had neglected half your query, ie. in regards Judith Bachelier.

I am not 100% of her parentage yet either, but more certain than I once was.

I do not think she was a daughter of Nicolas Bachelier and Marie Rossignol. That couple certainly fled direct from France to England after the Charenton Temple's destruction in late 1685, and in the first year alone in England 1686, they appear in the charity records of the Threadneedle Street Church serveral times, including one instance where Nicolas claims for himself, wife and three children.  Unfortunately the children are not named in the document, but if the numbers are accurate, this alone seems to rule out Judith as a a daughter as his three children are accounted for in later records:

Nicolas Bachelier Jr (born France circa 1674) married Madelaine Deshayes London 1697
Marie Magdeliane Bachelier (born France circa 1679) married Abraham Pottier London 1701 rem Paul Boucher 1721
Paul Bachelier (born France circa 1680) married Esther Saumon London 1706, remarried to Marie Gaucheron 1725

After arrival the family seemed to almost exclusively use the Threadneedle Street Church London, Nicolas, his wife, and all three of his children appearing as godparents there on ten occasions between 1687-1701. (There is just one exception in 1697 when Nicolas stands as a godparent at the smaller St Jeans Chapel in Spitalfields.) It would seem strange Judith not appearing if she were indeed part of that immediate family.

In addition Nicolas's children, at marriage, where they do state place of origin, always give Villeparisis or Paris, never Meaux en Brie. On the only known occasion Judith gave her own place of origin (Son Timonthy's baptism 1729) she gives Meaux en Brie.

The couple I instead favour for her parents, Jean and Judith Bachelier, arrived in London in the summer of 1701, joining the same Threadneedle Street church used by Nicolas and family on 31 August that year. They had a testimonial of faith from the Huguenot congregation at the Waals Kirk Haarlem.

Exactly a month to the day later Nicolas's daughter Marie Magdelaine Bachelier got married at the Threadneedle Street Church, however, perhaps significantly, six days before this she also publicly announced her intention to marry at La Patente Huguenot Chapel, Spitalfields:


1701. 25 Sep

POTTIER & BACHELLIER

Abraham Pottier, weaver, residing in Ouyle (Wheeler) Street, Stepney, born of Nanteuil, Meaux en Brie, Son of Abraham Potier and the deceased Magdelaine Cadet, - and Marie Madelaine Bachelier, born of Paris, and daughter of Nicolas Bachelier and Marie Rossignol; together announce their intention to be married publically in the Church of Stepney, in unity, and without opposition. 

Statement witnessed and signed by: J.Bachelier, N.Bachelier, Paul Bachelier, Marie Rossignol, Pierre Nepueu, Jacob Pottier, Jean Robert, Louis Robert.

Minister: Balguerie


This is the first time the Bacheliers are on record as ever using this chapel,  and the first time a 'J.Bachelier' ever appears on any London records. This must surely then be Jean Bachelier who had joined Threadneedle street a few weeks earlier?

Also this is the same chapel Judith Bachelier uses to baptise her children to Antoine Deverdun 1705-1729. I suspect then the J is likely Jean Bachelier, and he is Judith's father, and that  the family joined this congregation on their arrival in 1701 as well as Threadneedle Street which their relatives Nicolas and family were already using.

This would neatly explain why Judith Bachelier/Deverdun calls a child Nicolas, and why Marie Bachelier and Marie Saumon, Esther Saumon/Bachelier's sister, appear as godparents to her and Antoine's children at La Patente.


To add weight to this Jean and Judith appear on the 1709 Royal Bounty accounts and the following info is giving for them:

Jean Bachelier, 52, of Meaux en Brie, Weaver, and Judith his wife, 65, residing at Pheonix Street, Spitalfields were paid 15 shillings.

This would make them 26 and 39 respectively at about the time Judith was born in France circa 1683, and of course the place of origin matches exactly with that Judith gives, unlike Nicolas and Marie Bachelier. Also, Antoine Deverdun and Judith Bachelier's daughter Elizabeth Deverdun/Mourgue recorded her adress in 1763 as the exact same place Pheonix Street, Spitalfields. Could be pure coincidence but worth mentioning none the less.

Again lacks concrete proof, but particularly in light of the fact Antoine Deverdun also came to London from Haarlem at this same time, 1701-3, as did most of the other families who act as godparents to their children and use La patente with them,  hopefully you'll agree a good case can be made all the same, again not certain, but very plausible scenario.

Regards

Richard

[VALEMBURY]

Hi Jenny and Richard,

I hope you don't mind me joining in your discussions on the Bachelliers etc. - I had forgotton how fascinating it was when I was researching my line which is as above, Paul b. 1711 who married Marie Magdelaine Finet. I only wanted to mention, and you probably are already aware, that most of the Ancestry Tree Members think that Judith was the dau. of Nicholas Bachellier and Marie Rossignol.  One of them lists 6 children as follows:-
Daniel b. 1/11/1672 Nanteuil, Les Meaux, Jean 10/7/1674 Ville Parisis, Nicholas 10/7/1674 - 1739 (twins or an error) VP, Marie Magdelaine 1679 VP, Paul 1680 VP, Judith 1683 VP.

Also, Richard, I don't think I've come across anyone who has so much information on this family as you do, I really am impressed, so don't think me cheeky if I ask if you have come across my 'brick wall', Gilbert Goullee, who married Elizabeth Ann Bachellier, dau. of Paul and Marie.  They married on 5/11/1777 and I believe Gilbert was the son of Gilbert Goullee and Frances ?, his first wife, after she died he married Eleanor Terrerre on 23/2/1780.  I also think that his parents were Pierre Goullee and Marie (Mary) Gilbert who married on 15/5/1733, Fleet Prison and Rules of the Prison, his father Timothe from Normandy.  My problem is that I can't find a baptism for my Gilbert (1754 ish) although I have traced him through all his life.  If you have any ideas, I would be more than grateful and I know Jenny, you said you would look out for him as well.

Thanks very much and kind regards,
Val

[richarde1979]

Hello Val

Please feel free to join in. Your additional information on the Bacheliers is most interesting. I am always a bit wary of Ancestry trees, but the birth dates and the two additional elder sons for Nicolas and Marie does suggest their might be something in their info, it would be interesting to know their source on those.

Unfortunately in regards Gilbert Goulee born circa 1754 still unable to find anymore than my previous posts to this thread, he seems a real mystery man, I can find no trace of his baptism at all, though of course he appears in old age as a French Hospital applicant. It does seem strange.

Regards

Richard