Author Topic: Bachellier  (Read 13460 times)

Offline VALEMBURY

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Re: Bachellier
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 24 January 12 09:54 GMT (UK) »
Hi Richarde,
Thank you for the welcome and I found that information under the Member name of 'My Family Tree' - Owner: starflyergirl.  I clicked on 'Show siblings'.  I agree, it would be interesting to learn where he/she obtained those details.

I appreciate you having another look for Gilbert - it is so annoying to think that is the one link I can't find and so important as well to the Normandy connection.  I just wondered if having access to the French Hospital records where so much information was held, there was some mention of his baptism as was the case with other Goullees of the same family.  All his siblings have some sort of record, albeit the name was corrupted more often than not, why not him?  Oh well, one day perhaps!

Nice to have your contact anyway,
best wishes
Val
Embury ( London, Bibury) Hamlin (Bibury), Goullee (North London), Rolph (London, Walthamstow), Wheeler (London)

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Bachellier
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 24 January 12 10:29 GMT (UK) »
Hello Val

I think looking at his record (Gilberts) the problem is he was never actually an inmate of the French Hospital, rather a group of nine local people just sent a short petition for him to be considered as a possible applicant giving just bare bones information of his case, but for some reason it never went any further than that. Had he gone through the official registration process and/or become an inmate the file would have contained greater information, including usually documentation, enclosures such as baptism, parents wedding, etc and anything else he could supply to verify who he was and his credentials as a genuine Huguenot decendant qualifying for relief from the institution. Unfortunately this never happened, why it does not state, though at 82 and in poor health, the obvious thought is he may have sadly died before things got any further along than that initial step.

Regards

Richard
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline MabelLucy

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Re: Bachellier
« Reply #29 on: Thursday 26 January 12 22:45 GMT (UK) »
Hi Rcharde

I'm sorry I've been so long with this, but I work very long hours and have to travel as well Monday through Thursday, so I don't get much of a chance for this sort of thing until Friday.  Thanks so much for your very long and detailed responses to my questions. Like Val I am amazed by your knowledge of the family and the Huguenots. Your logical thinking sorted out the hazy mess in my mind regarding our mutual ancesters and it all makes much more sense now. I had suspected myself that it might be a case of mistaken memory and a simple case of wrong name (Samuel). Also I can see that it also could be the family story getting currupted (a la Chinese whispers) as it was used for admittance to the French Hospital etc for one family member after another.

Also I like your ideas on Judith - it sounds very feasible that Jean and Judith were Judith's parents. It is good to have possibe answers to these knotty problems. I think I might have to invest in some of the French Hospital CDs one of these days - they must make interesting reading.

Once again thankyou for your very well thought out answers to my questions. No doubt something else will pop up to bother me in the future and I will, in turn, have to bother you again.

Many thanks
Jenny

Jackson, Richardson, Feecham, Bachelier, Deverdun, Cranmer, Hickton, De Courcy Hickton, Dale, Brown, Cockson Brown, Thomas, James, Gault - England, France.

McAtasney, McIlvaney, Cook, McSloy, Baker, Lamont, Murray - Scotland, Ireland.

Biggs, McAtasney, Sheehan, Fleming - Falkland Islands, Ireland, England


Offline VALEMBURY

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Re: Gilbert Goullee
« Reply #30 on: Friday 27 January 12 11:24 GMT (UK) »
Hi Richarde,

Hope this is not a bother for you but I'm afraid I am in need of your expertise again.  I have come across this baptism record on Ancestry for a Gribert (this should read Gilbert) Goulden, this seems to have been correctly transcribed.  The problem is that every detail apart from the surname (the all important factor I know) fits my Gilbert i.e.  baptised 5/5/1756 St. Matthew Bethnal Green, parents Gilbert (a Weaver) and Frances.  My Gilbert and Frances had 9 children, and 8 were baptised so I am convinced that Gilbert would have been as well but his record has obviously been the victim of clerical error somewhere along the line.  I know this entry is from the parish records and am wondering whether it could have been entered incorrectly but I believe there was another source also which maybe I could check it against.  Is it the Bishops' Transcripts and if so, do you have any idea how I could access them please?
I would really appreciate any help you can offer.

Val
Embury ( London, Bibury) Hamlin (Bibury), Goullee (North London), Rolph (London, Walthamstow), Wheeler (London)

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Bachellier
« Reply #31 on: Friday 27 January 12 13:46 GMT (UK) »
Hi Val

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=074-dl_3-2&cid=1-1#1-1

The St Matthews Bishops Transcripts are held at the London Metropolitan Archives, same place as the originals of the parish registers.

I agree I'd be inclined to think Gilbert Goulden is your man if all the other info fits. The original register may have been recopied at some point into another ledger, and misread, though even if not, its quite usual to find these Huguenot surnames spelt a variety of ways in the English registers. At that point 1750's the Huguenot community was still fairly self contained and many of them were not English speakers, so there was a language barrier between them and the Anglican parich clerks. Earlier in the thread this was referred to with Judith Bachelier, who was recorded as Judith 'Basley'. I imagine the clerk though he heard Bach-A-LEY as Bas-A-LEY. Shows how easy these mistakes crept in. I have seen even weirder examples than that whilst researching these East End French families!

Regards

Richard
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Bachellier
« Reply #32 on: Sunday 29 January 12 09:36 GMT (UK) »
All I have to resolve now is the ongoing problem of  man of mystery Samuel Feecham - my grandmother wrote that the French family name was FeChamp - which ties in with Feecham, but I can't find any FeChamps around at that time (Samuel was a weaver so it probably follows he was Huguenot as he was connected with them and married one of the Deverduns).


Hello again Jenny

I have had a look at your mystery man Samuel Feecham.

His burial records his surname as 'Peacham'

12th November 1820 St Matthew Bethnal Green " Samuel Peacham, aged 63 of Woods' Close"

This is definitely him as we know this was the family adress, from his son James Feecham, who gave for his date and place of birth in his 1850's French Hospital petition as  "January 6th, 1799, Wood's Close, Bethnal Green"

This then is almost certainly Samuel's baptism spelt similarly:

9th August 1752 St Mary Whitechapel "Samuel Peacham, son of Ambrose and Elizabeth Peacham, Bell Yard"

To confirm this the couple had a n elder son John baptised at same church a few years previous and did spell their name 'Feacham'

This variability of spelling was noted as late as the late 19th century by the French Hospital who remarked that due to illiteracy the family had spelt the surname three different ways Feecham/Feacham/Fetcham on the same single petition.

Samuel's father Ambrose does seem to have been baptised as "Fetcham":

Baptised 9th August 1719 St Leonard Shoreditch, Middlesex "Ambrose Fetcham son of Ambrose Fetcham of Hollywell Lane"

I see Valda had already found much of this info in a previous thread here:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,518666.msg3741094.html#msg3741094

I cannot find a baptism for Samuel's grandfather Ambrose Fetcham in London, though presumably he would have been born circa 1680-1700. It may well be he moved from elsewhere in England to find work in the East London weaving trade. (There is an 'Ambros Feachom, son of John Feachom', baptised 8 July 1689, Romsey, Hampshire which could well be him). I am fairly satisfied he was not Huguenot. There was just as many natives working in the industry as French at the time, and this also fits with all my prior research which as a general rule at this time saw the French weavers clustered in and around Spitalfields and Bethnal Green, whilst the English weavers tended to live together particularly in Hollywell Lane, and New Inn Yard in Shoreditch and the surrounding courts.

Nevertheless, I double checked anyway and no sign of Ambrose in the French churches, or even the surname (or any possible French deriviates such as FeChamp or Feauchamp) in use amongst the Huguenot refugees in London, who were fairly well documented at every turn by the support and church systems set up for them here and external sources such as the Royal Bounty records.

Certainly by the time Mary Deverdun married Samuel Feecham 1777, the French community had become very Anglicised, particularly second and third generation English born members such as Mary, and marriages with the outside community were increasingly common, probably even accounting for the majority of marriages by that point, whereas just a generation or so before 1730-50 this was by no means yet the case.

In fact logically the petition to the French Hospital of James Feecham alone itself indicates this as the case. The preferable way to trace your French heritage for admission to the Hospital was through the paternal line, and certainly if he had been French through both maternal and paternal lines he would have very much stated so, as it would have added considerable weight to his case for admission there. The fact he only claims through his mother's line and her decent from the Deverduns and Bacheliers, seems to confirm the above and that he himself was aware there was no French roots on his father's Feecham/Feacham/Peacham family.

The surname database appears to further confirm this with both Feacham and Peacham having native English origins:

http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Feacham

http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Peacham


Hope that is of some help.

Best Regards

Richard


Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline VALEMBURY

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Re: Bachellier
« Reply #33 on: Sunday 12 February 12 10:50 GMT (UK) »
Hi Richard,
I've just been advised by the LMA that the Bishops' Transcripts for St. Matthews Bethnal Green for around 1750 haven't survived so it looks like I don't have that cross check on Gilbert Goulden's baptism after all.  I understand that you have bought cd's covering the French Hospital entries but am wondering if there are any which cover bmds or individual family records which might include the Goullee family and if so, could you recommend one in particular, please.
This is a last ditch attempt to finally connect my Gilbert born approx. 1755 to possible parents Gilbert and Frances, and even their marriage around 1754/5 would be a bonus.
Thanks and hope I am not being a nuisance.
best wishes
Val
Embury ( London, Bibury) Hamlin (Bibury), Goullee (North London), Rolph (London, Walthamstow), Wheeler (London)

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Bachellier
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 14 February 12 11:49 GMT (UK) »
Hello Val

That is a shame about the BT's for St Matthew's. Apart from the original register itself, which is the one on Ancestry, I don't believe any other copy of the baptism would exist. Sometimes the family did get an extract from the register for other purposes, for example with the French families to gain entrance to the French Hospital, but aside from the fact that any error may well have been copied anyway, this was not the case for the Goulle family.

There doesn't appear to be any other baptism's at St Matthews, or the surrounding churches, for a Gilbert and Frances 'Goulden' so that lends weight to it being an error for Goulle.

Regards

Richard
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline kseward1965

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Re: Bachellier
« Reply #35 on: Sunday 16 March 14 20:26 GMT (UK) »
Hi all,

I'm new to this but have currently traced my Mum's family back to Bethnal Green via her paternal grandfather George Batchellier (via the Oxfordshire Light Infantry).

This thread has been most helpful in explaining where they were and why!

Thank you for the info.

Kev