Brick Wall

[foggyjano]

I have hit a brick wall with my gt gt gt grandfather

Richard Thomas born 1817 Montgomeryshire, I think he also had a brother John.  They disappear from Wales and pop up in Bilston in 1851  Class: HO107; Piece: 2021; Folio: 683; Page: 30.  Richards son William was born around 1831-35 in Knighton,

I cannot find any records prior to the 1851/1841 census and his marriage to Mary

Any ideas where to look?

[osprey]

What reference do you have for the 1841 census?

The place of birth for Richard and William on the 1851 looks to be Llandrinio which would be the registration district of Llanfyllin.
possibles
William Thomas june qtr 1841 Llanfyllin vol 27 pg 81
Thomas Thomas june qtr 1844 Llanfyllin vol 27 pg 87

Richard Thomas june qtr 1841 Shrewsbury vol 18 pg 258 with Mary Clayton on the same page (be thankful, there's also a Susannah Pee on the same page  )

just suggestions
 

[foggyjano]

Hi Thanks for the reply.

The 1841 census : Class: HO107; Civil Parish: Wolverhampton; County: Staffordshire; Enumeration District: 24; Page: 20; Line: 2; 

Richard Thomas born 1817
William Thomas born 1831
John Thomas born 1821 (Richards brother ?)

I do not know if the Meddings are related or just the people that the family boarded with

I cannot read the writing what town they were born, which has made life harder.... I am only stuck on this side of the family, which is very frustrating for me....

Thanks Jan

[osprey]

Ok, I'm getting confused now. There are no places of birth given on the 1841 census, just yes born in county or no, not born in county. How sure are you that these are the same people?
1851 family Richard is a stone miner and the 1841 one is a furnace man.
1841 doesn't give relationships but Mary is a widow - it says so in occupation field and there's only 14 years between Richard and William - more likely brothers.
1851 William born 1841 can't be the same one as there was a 10 year old William in 1841.
The place of birth for William and Thomas from the 1851 census is Llandrinio. I suspect Richard's birthplace is the same although it's not very clear.
It looks like Richard's first wife died and he remarried to Mary Griffiths who had the 4 children listed as in-laws.

think this is Mary plus family in 1841
Longden, Pontesbury, Shropshire HO107/911/8 folio 20 pgs 2-3
Richard Griffith 40 ag lab
Mary 30
Edwin 5
Sarah 3
Richard 2
all born in county
several possible death registrations for Richard Griffiths in Atcham - registration district for Pontesbury. Birth place for 2 of the children in 1851 given as Stapleton - within 5 miles of Pontesbury.
Can't see the marriage on FreeBmd though
 

[foggyjano]

Hells Bells, thank you for pointing this out... I am right back to the drawing board with this family....

My only clue was that Richard Thomas born 1817 boarded with Sarah Cullis in 1871, she had children to her first husband one of them Richard Cullis who moved to Pendlebury to live with William Thomas My gt gt gt grandfather) and Lucy Thomas (Pearson)...hence cos there are no clear records I persumed ( yikes) that Richard Thomas and William Thomas were related

It could be just concidence that they both shared the same surname...The other problem i have Sarah Cullis and Richard Thomas had a son Harry Thomas born 1866....... he appears to pop up on the 1881 census as William and Lucys son, but i cannot find a birth for him to William and Lucy..

Alot of this has been quess work with nothing Factual to stand by it...

Back to the drawing board, I may just leave this part of the tree as unsolved as i am clueless   

Thanks for your help and pointing out my mistakes....

Jano

[osprey]

There's hope yet! The Richard and William from your 1851 are father and son. The Richards living with the Cullis family look to be the same people as your 1851 family - wonder what happened to the step-children (scrub that, think I might have spotted Edwin and Richard in some later census entries, not sure about Samuel though).
 
Your problems are caused by common surnames and these places all seem to be registration districts that are in at least 3 counties.All really helped by not all births being registered in the early days of civil registration. Oh joy!
I think finding birth certificates of William and Thomas would be a good idea. These births should have been registered in Llanfyllin - I'm pretty sure the place of birth for both of them says Llandrinio. Getting the certs from the local office would be your best bet as they could be checked for father's details so you don't pay for wrong ones.
registers now at
Welshpool and Llanfyllin
District Council Offices
Severn Road
Welshpool
Powys
SY21 7AS
01938 552828 ext 228

The marriage cert for Richard and Sarah would be good, but they could have married anywhere between Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton. The youngest Griffiths, Samuel, has St Julian's as his place of birth on the 1851 census - that's one of the Shrewsbury parishes.
Parish records for Llandrinio aren't complete at the Powys Archives. The complete ones are at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth. You can access the records there in person but must get a reader's card in advance. Or you can use a researcher.There is a list on their website of researchers who will do look-ups for a fee - the library does not do free look-ups.
I think it's one of those times in family history when you have to pay for certs or for research if you want to get any further. There are just too many Thomases out there to go without documentation.
 

[foggyjano]

Thanks for your advise and researching, you are so right this part of my family all fall into different counties at different times in history which has made this harder.

William states on one census he was borin in wrighton, which i have took to mean Knighton, but really who knows... I will have a look into ordering some certs to make sure...

Jano

[foggyjano]

Good news... I have found Richard Thomas marriage to Mary Hardwicke... Knighton June 1839.. It was on bmd they must hve updated it since i last checked for a marriage for Richard and Mary... At least i have a bit more info.. Williams birth is also showing March 1838....also for Knighton... the puzzle pieces are coming together more.....