Paris Street, Exeter

[IanT]

James GILL bap 1810 St Sidwells:
IGI record: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JSJB-3ZY

I have a few reasons for suspecting the James GILL St Sidwells bap 1810 is more of a possibility than Yarcombe in 1805:

AGE:
[Burial record] burial Jan 1844 age 35 puts bir/bap around 1809. Possibly our best guide to birth date?
[1841 census Ilminster] age 25 allowing for rounding down puts age 25-29, so bir 1812-1816
[1841 census Ilminster] had a 9 year old son at this time; so James maybe closer to the upper end of the 25-29 age possibility?

LOCATIONS:
[Bap. William GILL 1832 8 Apr 1832] James first son was bap. Colyton, one week after parent's marriage. I take this as more of an indication of mother's home; James & Elizabeth were not married at the time; seems natural for unwedded Elizabeth to give birth at home with mother in Colyton.

[Marr. James GILL & Elizabeth PAGE 1 Apr 1832 Colyton] as marriages are more likely to take place in the bride's parish, again I see this as more of an indication of Elizabeth's home - Colyton.

[Bap. 2nd child Eliza GILL 22 Nov 1835, Saint Sidwells, Exeter] Father James is a Postboy; abode St. Sidwells, Exeter. Why baptise here if they lived elsewhere?

[Bap. 3rd child Thomas Page   GILL 9 May 1838 St Sidwell, Exeter] Father James is Coachman of Paris Street Exeter. Again why baptise here if they lived elsewhere?

[Bap. Mary Ann Gill 1840 Ilminster] this and 1841 census suggests to me that the family moved to Ilminster area between 1838 & 1840.

Burial at Yarcombe I think just represents where James and family had settled, not necessarily his birthplace.

[The Taunton Courier of 31 January 1844] ‘for many years driver of the Defiance coach, on the Ilminster Road’
My thinking is that James started his working life as a young man in Exeter/St Sidwells; ( 2 children baptised there); later became a coachman; was assigned the Ilminster 'stage' of the Exeter-London coach route, & moved with his family to Ilminster, to drive this stretch.

Of course none of this can be seen as proof, but a St Sidwells boy was a little more likely to get involved in the coaching trade.

. . . . .

Further reading (interesting, but proves nothing apart from St Sidwells being a hub for the coaching business):

From: http://www.devonheritage.org/Places/Exeter/CoachinginExeterCossins.htm

"James Cossins who was born in Exeter in 1823, had a tobacconist shop at 36 Paris Street, Exeter ... seems to have been on familiar terms with all the key people in his parish of St. Sidwel, especially the coaching fraternity." ...
"It was computed that in the parish of St Sidwell alone, 3000 persons derived their maintenance in connection with the above occupations."
[Surely 3000 is a transcription/OCR error? I'd believe 300!?]

. . . . .

Dorothy: I see some differences in our data: as above, I think I have 2 St Sidwells baps for children of James GILL & Elizabeth, you previously posted 'James had issue baptised at Colyton, Ilminster and Membury'. Is this the crux of the matter?

[dee-jay]

Ian, I see nothing new in your listed data that I, and several of my very experienced correspondents, have skipped over the past 29 years' co-operation.  We have kept an open mind in the hope that, one day, we will encounter definitive proof of 'our'James GILL's origins. 

[IanT]

OK, thanks. You agree two baps (Eliza and Thomas Page) to James GILL and Elizabeth in St Sidwells then?

I too am keeping an open mind; do you have any clues for me as to why you 'discounted the John/Isabella suggestion many moons ago' ?

[dee-jay]

OK, thanks. You agree two baps (Eliza and Thomas Page) to James GILL and Elizabeth in St Sidwells then?

I too am keeping an open mind; do you have any clues for me as to why you 'discounted the John/Isabella suggestion many moons ago' ?

Responses:
(1) Yes:  Early in my personal research I paid an Exeter researcher to extract Eliza's PR baptism and I asked the Exeter Registrar to complete blanks in my extracts to show illegible parts on Thomas Page GILL's GRO birth cert.
(2)  The naming pattern of John/Isabella's issue was not replicated in those of James/Elizabeth. If James' mother was Isabella I would have expected her to be commemorated but if Lydia I could understand if they chose not to!  Thomas Page GILL commemorated Elizabeth's father, named on her second marriage certificate to Joseph EVERY, and her son from the 2nd marriage was named James John, which I believe commemorated her two infant mortalities in her first marriage. 

[IanT]

dee-jay:

OK, thanks again, I now understand some of the reasoning. But the 5-year age difference in the two James GILL's births worries me, and like you I will need definitive proof before I'm able to fall one way or the other on the John/Isabella or James/Elizabeth parentage question. So for the time being I'll have to be content with remaining 'stuck' at coachman James GILL.

I'm not sure if you intended it, but I found your previous reply #19 brusque and condescending; as if your 'time on the job' with 'several of your very experienced correspondents' entitled you to dismiss the efforts of others. I have been researching 'on and off' for 31 years - but I would never use that fact to suggest that my research skills are in any way superior to others. You will recall thanking me back in reply #8 for posting bap. details of Thomas Page GILL, which I was happy to post openly and selflessly. Every little helps - surely friendly co-operation is to be encouraged.

[dee-jay]

Profuse apologies, Ian.  I was ravenous for food, having neglected both breakfast and lunch to delve into boxes that haven't seen the light of day for ages. I'm now about to sort out dinner so please excuse this brief response, I assure you no slight intended.  If memory serves me correct, I kept you 'in the loop' on the DAVIDSON research for years. 

[dee-jay]

Ian
Now that I've had time to delve into the huge volume of my accumulated GILL paperwork, I found in 1995 I extracted all the IGI baptisms for Exeter St Sidwell 1809-1820 and Exeter St Peter Cathedral 1822-1833 attributed to John GILL/Isabella, and employed a local researcher to extract PR details.

I subsequently found the marriage by banns 1835 of James GILL/Elizabeth SNELL solemnized in the Parish of Precinct of the Close at Exeter City and, if you check the 1851 Census ref: HO 107 1538 folio 318 page 41 at Shoreditch, you will discover widowed James GILL 40, Labourer in the Docks, born Exeter, his children Isabella 16, Ann Maria 9 and John 4, and, significantly, his unmarried sister Ann 23 born Exeter Cathedral Close.

My maternal Grandfather, who died when my Mother was 3, lied about his age at marriage to a younger bride, adopted a first Christian name with which he was neither registered nor baptized and kept up the pretence until his untimely death in 1908.  You may recall all the anomalies with which James DAVIDSON plagued our research similarly, so you should understand why I take 'our' James GILL's claims in the 1841 Census with 'a pinch of salt'.   

dee-jay   
 

[IanT]

Thank you very much for the detailed and very compelling explanation.

I guess I'm only left with the question of why James Gill had two children baptised St Sidwells - unless the couple lived there earlier in their marriage - or his wife Elizabeth was living St Sidwells (with Gill relatives?) while James was 'on the road'..

Thanks again..

[AlexF789]

Dear Ian T and Downcraig, I'm interested in Sir Charles Holland Hastings who is my 3 x Great grandfather.  Having disentangled him for the other contemporary Sir Charles Hastings I'm now stuck as to CHH's parentage.  All help gratefully received