Author Topic: A grandfather who had no children???  (Read 18530 times)

Offline greenvalley

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A grandfather who had no children???
« on: Monday 28 May 07 09:42 BST (UK) »
On my search for the Anderson family of Oakbank, Bishopmill I came across the following puzzle.

I visited Elgin and found the house where the Andersons used to live Oakbank, which nowadays looks like a tiny castle. Inside was a window with the Sutherland crest, which I thought was surprising. The house owners told me that the window had been put in by Eric Sutherland ANDERSON when he rebuilt the old house about 1906.

I then wondered if there was a connection to the Sutherland family and started to look them up.

Eric Sutherland ANDERSON (born 1847) is the oldest son of Eric ANDERSON and Agnes WILSON

Eric ANDERSON is born December 1818 as the son of Lewis ANDERSON and Jean SUTHERLAND.

Jean SUTHERLAND in turn was the daughter of Errick SUTHERLAND and Jean LAWSON, who married in 1790 in Elgin.

Errick SUTHERLAND lived at Rosevalley and Keam Duffus and was the grandson of WILLIAM SUTHERLAND IN ROSEVALLEY & HELEN DUFF

This William SUTHERLAND in turn was the son of My Lord Sutherland and Helen Duff was the daughter of the Laird of Dipple. I found this information in Moray on their official website.

Problem is that I can't find a father for Errick or a son (or any other child) for William and Helen. The only thing I did find was the information that "William of Roscommon married (contract of 1702) Helen daughter of William Duff of Dipple. As a Jacobite he left Scotland after the rebellion of 1716."

Helen DUFF seems to have died in 1709, so any offspring was born between 1702 and 1709, so why can't I find any? To become a grand parent you first need to be a parent, or am I missing something ???

Any help would be much appreciated.

Greenvalley
ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire

Offline greenvalley

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #1 on: Monday 28 May 07 10:59 BST (UK) »
correction

Helen DUFF seems to have died in 1709, so any offspring was born between 1702 and 1709, so why can't I find any?

She died in 1746, but there are still no kiddies anywhere.

Greenvalley
ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire

Offline Little Nell

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #2 on: Monday 28 May 07 12:36 BST (UK) »
I don't know in which parish any children might have been baptised - probably Elgin.  But there is a gap in the Elgin baptism register 1679-1705.  And there is no guarantee that all baptisms were faithfully recorded even then.  There are only four years of marriages (1705-09) before a long gap to 1770.

Not all old registers are in good condition and it may have been impossible to transcribe and index things properly.  Have you looked for any possible wills?

Since the Moray website has the information, it would be interesting to ask them their source!

Nell
All census information: Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline greenvalley

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #3 on: Monday 28 May 07 15:15 BST (UK) »
Thanks Nell

I guess that what baffles me is that all these websites that show all the grand Sutherlands and laird of Dipple do not mention any offspring whatsoever.

If William had to make a run for it after 1716 there's no way of telling where they were. What is certain is that his "grandson" seems well connected.

Some of his children went to India and one son Erick was a military secretaryand colonel and his brother John was also a Colonel in India and a governer general. So they seem to be still well connected.

It's just that I can't find any evidence of the family link.

Greenvalley
ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire

Offline Little Nell

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #4 on: Monday 28 May 07 23:09 BST (UK) »
There is a testament dative and inventory of William Sutherland of Rossecomon (query Roscommon, Ireland) on the SoctlandsPeople site - 5 pages long.  He is recorded as sometime merchant of Edinburgh, lately a residenter of the Abbey of Holyrood House.  It was proved 17 June 1747.  It would cost 5 to download a copy.  But it may give some family details.

From everything I can find, the missing link may be either a James or Kenneth.  But there does seem to be confusion about the number of Erics about - they could be cousins or nephews and I wonder if something might have been linked incorrectly.

Real puzzle!

Nell
All census information: Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline greenvalley

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 03 June 07 15:33 BST (UK) »
Hi Nell,

where did you see James or Kenneth? I haven't come accross anyone.

The Moray heritage people told me that the information about Erick being the grandson of William Sutherland of Roscommon came from some title deeds. But because they had a fire, they won't be able to locate anything until the end of the summer.

Now that i was looking up the Andersons, I came accross another anomaly. Most "Anderson" of Kinnedar website mention Eric Anderson (1818 - 1866) and trace his line via Lewis ANDERSON (1773) to James ANDERSON and Margaret BAIRD and James ANDERSON to James and Isobel ANDERSON.

But the heritage centre has an inscription of a head stone, erected by Lewis in 1829, which states

Leonard ANDERSON, farmer in Kinnedar and Marjorie SUTHERLAND his wife. Stone erected by their grandson Lewis ANDERSON (in 1829), fourth son of James ANDERSON, some time farmer in Kinnedar.
Also Lewis ANDERSON, 45 years a merchant in Elgin, died 4.12.1849 aged 67 years.
Also Jean SUTHERLAND ANDERSON died Oakbank, Elgin 7.6.1881, aged 88 years.

So it seems that these people were wrong and you won't be surprised if I tell you that, of course, I can't find the people mentioned on the stone. Well, I've got Lewis, but no birth details for him.  :-[

Lesson learned is:don't believe anything you see in a family tree.

Greenvalley
ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire

Offline Little Nell

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #6 on: Monday 04 June 07 12:30 BST (UK) »
I went searching for Sutherlands, Lord Duffus came up in connection with them, and both a James and a Kenneth appeared around the time I think you are interested in - unfortunately I can't remember the exact route now.

Hmm, puzzling.  Don't discard the information - there could well be some truth in it all.  I know there are some papers in a record office written by an apparent great grandchild (maybe 2 x great) of a certain person on my family tree - gives the descent and a few dates.  Except it's not true - said person had two daughters only, both of whom died in infancy.  Someone perhaps had been brought up hearing the wrong stories!

Nell
All census information: Crown Copyright www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline greenvalley

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #7 on: Monday 04 June 07 15:04 BST (UK) »
Hi Nell,

I thought about that too, but we know when Lewis died, he left a will, and since the date for his wife is correct I assume that his is too.

Which means that this Lewis Anderson was 67 when he died in 1849, which in turn means that he was born about 1782, not in 1773 as the Lewis Anderson mentioned in those family trees. It's quite a difference in age.

You wouldn't think his widow could get it so wrong, would you. And that he and his wife are confused as to names and dates of birth? And that they still would have the info chissled onto a head stone ??? ???

I think people got it wrong because they assumed that all the dates would be on the parish records, but these Andersons may have belonged to another church.

Ah well, it's the storey of this family tree. Any time I think I found something, there are more problems to solve and none solved.

Thanks anyway

Greenvalley
ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire

Offline gwend

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 23 April 09 13:31 BST (UK) »
Hello there distant cousin...
With ref to the topic, have you found the info you required?
You may be interested to note...Jean Sutherland (Anderson), Brother of John and Eric sutherland was not the grand daughter of William sutherland...
Should you require further info let me know...
I am from Eric sutherland's line...
Gwen.