Author Topic: A grandfather who had no children???  (Read 18536 times)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 25 April 17 12:19 BST (UK) »
Can you message me?

Welcome to RootsChat, Wilfred.

There is a personal messaging system on RootsChat, which you can use once you have made at least 3 posts to the forum.

You might consider telling us the names of Charles Theophilus Metcalfe's wife and her sister, and where the marriages took place.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline Wilfred Day

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 25 April 17 17:08 BST (UK) »
Metcalfe carried out his mission to the Court of Ranjit Singh from Sept. 10, 1808 to May 2, 1809 which resulted in the signing of the Treaty of Amritsar on April 25, 1809. That was when he met his wife Merriam (Mirriam, Maryam) and they must have married in the Punjab. Their first son was born 12 Nov. 1810 in Delhi, but Studholme was not baptised until 18 Dec 1813 at Fort William, Calcutta.

Merriam's sister Ushrut came to the court of Ranjit Singh around 1817, with her father on a trade mission. The date of her wedding to John Sutherland is not documented well; I am inclined to date it in 1821, but perhaps it was earlier. Their first child was born in 1823 (or perhaps 1822).

Offline Wilfred Day

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 25 April 17 17:10 BST (UK) »
I forgot to mention the place of the wedding between Ushrut and John Sutherland: several sources place it in the principal Mosque at Bharatpur. I am currently assuming that Ushrut and her sister were Ismaili Muslims.


Offline Forfarian

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 25 April 17 18:33 BST (UK) »
There you are - you have now made three posts, and you can use the Personal Message system.

I have seen somewhere online a suggestion that John Sutherland, son of John Alexander Sutherland, was born in Elgin in 1821, but I have not found any reliable information to corroborate that, so I would treat it with extreme caution.

John Alexander Sutherland was baptised in the Episcopal Church, according to LIBINDX, which references his baptism as MF A EL5 - this is the Elgin Episcopal register.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline Wilfred Day

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 25 April 17 18:58 BST (UK) »
Forfarian, if we are talking about John Alexander Sutherland (1 Jan 1793 to 24 Jun 1848), I am not aware of him having made a trip back to Scotland around 1821, which seems unlikely. My family tree for him shows his first of seven children as John Sutherland (Abt. 1823 to 17 Jun 1902), born in Hyderabad where his father was, according to the Bombay 1821 East India Register and Directory, serving with the Nizam's Horse as a Lieutenant in the Third Regiment Light Cavalry.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 25 April 17 19:28 BST (UK) »
It does indeed. It is a warning about believing anything you find in online family trees! Hyderabad sounds much more likely than Elgin.

Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline greenvalley

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #33 on: Monday 23 September 19 14:59 BST (UK) »
Hi Guys

Sorry for the late reply.

If you look at the census of 1841 for Duffus you can see that John Sutherland jr was indeed staying with the family there, his uncle Alexander, who also worked for  Sir William Gordon Cumming of Altyre.

Address: Shempston

________________________________________

 SUTHERLAND   Alexander    M    45    Farmer        Morayshire   
SUTHERLAND   Ann   F   45            Morayshire   
SUTHERLAND    Eric   M   16           Morayshire   
SUTHERLAND    John   M    9            Morayshire   
 SUTHERLAND   John    M    19    Overseas - British     India

Greenvalley
ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire

Offline Haninger7

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 20 June 20 02:21 BST (UK) »
Hello,
While investigating an oft-repeated claim of my ancestor Alexander Sutherland's origins, I came across some records from https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ that might be of interest.  I've abstracted a few of them there.

13/07/1676 - Duffus (this record is partly worn)
Groom: THOMAS SUTHERLAND
Bride: ELSPETH SUTHERLAND

I have seen it claimed in some trees that Thomas Sutherland of Keam, son of William Sutherland (by Agnes Allan), younger son of William, 10th of Duffus, married his cousin Elizabeth Sutherland, daughter of the 1st Lord Duffus.

06/08/1686 - Duffus
Child: THOMAS SUTHERLAND
Father: THOMAS SUTHERLAND in Keame
Mother: ELSPETH SUTHERLAND in Keame
Witnesss: JOHN SUTHERLAND, [I can't quite make out the other name]

I have seen it claimed in some trees that this younger Thomas Sutherland of Keame married Margaret Rhind with children William, Alexander and Robert, but I've found no record to confirm this as of yet.

29/12/1723 - Edinburgh
Groom: WILLIAM SUTHERLAND, son of THOMAS SUTHERLAND of Keam, dec'd in the parish of Duffus; now in SE parish
Bride: EUPHAM EASON, daughter of DAVID EASON, merchant in SSE parish

06/03/1725 - Edinburgh
Child: DAVID SUTHERLAND
Father: WILLIAM SUTHERLAND, merchant
Mother: EUPHAN EASON
Witnesses: MR DAVID WALKER, advocat, ALEXANDER PETRIE, writer, DAVID EASON, merchant
Born 4 March 1725.

03/10/1726 - Edinburgh
Child: ALEXANDER SUTHERLAND
Father: WILLIAM SUTHERLAND, merchant
Mother: EUPHAM EASON
Witnesses: ALEXANDER PETRIE, writer, DAVID EASON and JAMES SPITTALL, merchants
Born 30 September 1725.
This Alexander is claimed in many trees to be my ancestor, though without direct proof.

07/05/1728 - Edinburgh
Child: JOHN SUTHERLAND
Father: WILLIAM SUTHERLAND, merchant
Mother: EUPHAM EASON
Witnesses: MR. JOHN HEPBURN, one of the ___ of the city, MR JOHN SUTHERLAND, student in Divinity, DAVID EASON and JAMES SPITLE merchants
Born 4 May 1728.

From this we establish that Thomas Sutherland of Keam, who was probably from a cadet branch of the Duffus line, had a son, William Sutherland, merchant in Edinburgh.  This William married Eupham Eason and had David, Alexander (often claimed to be my ancestor, but without substantial evidence to my knowledge), and John.

17/06/1747 - Edinburgh
Testament Dative and Inventory of WILLIAM SUTHERLAND of Rosecommon, sometime merchant in Edinburgh and late residenter in the Abbey of Holyroodhouse at the time of his decease (in March 1747).
Executor dative: ALEXANDER MCKENZIE of Fraserdale, Esq.
Debts owed to GEORGE DUGUID, merchant in Edinburgh.
Had goods in the house of BENJAMIN MILLER, gardener and brewer on the precincts of the Palace of Holyroodhouse, sold at public auction.  The balance of the sale was in the hands of GEORGE ROBERTSON, Clerk of the said Palace.
Confirmed by MASTER JAMES LESHE.
Cautioner: ANDREW CHALMER, writer in Edinburgh
Dated 17 Jun 1747.

If William Sutherland of Roscommon, son of Lord Duffus, really did die shortly after 1715 as is widely claimed, then it appears there was a second William Sutherland designated "of Roscommon", who was a younger cousin of the earlier Hon. William Sutherland of Roscommon who married Helen Duff.  And since this William Sutherland of Roscommon was described as a merchant in Edinburgh, one might suppose he is the same person as William Sutherland, son of Thomas Sutherland of Keam, who married Euphemia Eason.  And as this William Sutherland definitely had at least three children, he could have been the "Roscommon" progenitor of the Sutherlands mentioned in this thread.

That is one possibility.  But to make things a little more confusing, there was a William Sutherland, brewer of Edinburgh, who had a servant named Euphan Eason and a son Alexander of Woodend who married Helen Muirhead.  This William Sutherland, brewer, died 16 May 1759.  I of course have to wonder if William Sutherland the merchant later became William Sutherland the brewer (which would mean he was not the same William Sutherland, merchant of Edinburgh, who died in 1747).  Or if they were two distinct but possibly related individuals.

For what it's worth, the amusing family lore is that my ancestor Alexander Sutherland (who, for reasons that will soon become apparent, was clearly not the Alexander Sutherland who married Helen Muirhead) was a university student in Edinburgh.  One night, he and a few of his classmates went rough-housing on a docked ship.  I would assume there was plenty of alcohol involved, because they didn't come to their senses until long after the ship had set sail with them on board.  And that was how Alexander and his friends accidentally emigrated to what is now Hunterdon County, New Jersey.
Alexander married a widow, Elizabeth Williams.  His brother John later joined him in the colonies.  Both eventually migrated to upstate South Carolina with their families.  Alexander's daughter Jane, born around 1752, married Peter Acker, the progenitor of the Acker family of the American South from which I descend in a female line.

Offline greenvalley

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Re: A grandfather who had no children???
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 20 June 20 16:19 BST (UK) »
I really loved the storey of the unintended migration of Alexander! He must have loved the new land seeing that he didn't try to get back to Scotland.

Sadly it seems that you have as many confusing Sutherlands as I managed to find. The one I was looking at was called Erick and he was a farmer and portioner in Duffus where he was born, married and died. Some of his descendants claimed the family link to William Sutherland of Roscommon, but I have been unable to find a birth for Erick in 1748.

Good luck with your research.

Greenvalley
ANDERSON: Moray & Jamaica
ELDER: Stirlingshire, Perthshire & Glasgow
WILSON: Glenisla, Alyth & Dundee
GRANT & ATKINSON:Northumberland
HARRIS: Dron and Glasgow
MATSON: Glasgow and Belfast
OLIVER, HARDY & GIBSON: Ireland, Antrim Belfast
TODD: England and Jamaica
McGRIGOR, McILCHONNEL: Perthshire