Simon and Johanna Mangan

[Cog]

Gina,

do you have any idea of Johannas maiden name ?

Carol

[ginny44]

No sadly I don't.  I can't find their marriage any where.  I presume that because they are both from Clare, they married there, but I have learnt never to presume.  I can't find them on the Liverpool BMD either around the year their first son was born, so I can't trace them to get hold of their marriage cert either.

I wish I knew her maiden name, because it would help me research her line too.

Thanks Carol

Gina

[Cog]

Hi Gina

have been digging around since I last mailed you, found the family on the 1881 census with additions to your 1871 census

Michael age 14
David Snape age 25 son in law
Mary Snape age 20 daughter.   

address 92 Mill Street Toxteth Park, all the people you mention before are still on there.  With Mary being the oldest the marriage of Simon and Johanna could be 1860/61.

The 1891 census shows the famil still living in Toxteth Park address looks like Postance Place

Johanna 47 (may be telling a little white lie about her age) Widow, news vendor
Ellen age 12 news vendor
Margaret age 19, leather worker
Michael age 21 General Lab.

From this you can take it that Simon died between 1881 and 1891.

Of course as you say you cannot take anything for granted !!  before I followed up these above census pages I looked firstly for Simon Mangan in 1891

Oxford Street, Bilston, Staffordshire

Elizabeth Southall 46, head, widow, coal dealer
Elizabeth Southall 28 dau. general servant
Stephen McMan, 23, lodger, shoemaker born bromsgrove
Simon Manken age 52, widow, born Kibrush, Co Clare, shoemaker

Ref Class RG12  Piece 2243  Folio 4

now, it looks a bit odd , the enumerator spells the name Manken and not Mangan, but they also spell the place name wrong, it should be Kilrush.  I have tried (now dont laugh !) saying the name Mangan in a clare accent and it does come out as Manken sounding !  Its a bit of a long shot with him saying he is a widower and with the name spelt oddly, but I just have a feeling about it, we cannot say for sure that it isn't him.  If I was you I would get in touch with St Senans Church in Kilrush and ask for birth details and marriage detail, what have you got to lose ?

Carol

[ginny44]

Hello Carol

Thank you very much for this information, which I find quite intriguing.  Simon's wife Johanna is down as a widow in Liverpool on the 1891 census so it could be that he has left her, and to save face, she has told people that he is dead.  If it is him then, I wonder why he is living in Staffordshire?  I think it is him, as it would be too much a coincidence that the year he was born, the place he was born, and  the same occupation? all fits.

Thanks for giving me the church details and I will certainly contact the priest to see if they hold any records about him and his marriage.

I shall keep you updated.

Many thanks

Gina

p.s can I also ask if you know of a place called Kirena in Ireland.

[Cog]

Hello Gina

I have been looking through all the census pages, just quickly mind, and have found something even more interesting, it looks like your Simon had other family in the Toxteth Park area, as I said just a quick glance and I have found other Mangans born in Ireland that are shoemakers all living in the same area of Liverpool.  I will take a more careful look later and see if they come up with anything. Just to make sure - did you know that there were more family members (save me duplicating information).

Sorry I have never heard of the place in Ireland, where did you get the name from ?

Carol

[aghadowey]

It is possible that 'Kirena' is only a phonetic version of an actual place. See www.thecore.com/seanruad to find names of townlands and parishes (be sure to change default setting from exact match to search for part of a place).

[Cog]

Hi Gina

I have been looking through the census pages for the area of Toxteth Park.  The family I thought might be a help turns out to be from Dublin Ireland, here it is anyway
1851 Census
Address 31 Clark Street
Toxteth Park

Class H0107  Piece 2186  Folio 482

Thomas Mangan Head 46, shoemaker, born Dublin
Catherine wife 40
Nicholas 20 son Apprentice shoemaker, born Dublin
Catherine daug 7 born L'pool
James son 8 born l'pool
Margaret dau 18 born Dublin
Maria dau 9 born L'pool
Richard son 3 born L'Pool
Thomas son 5 born L'Pool
Margaret Byrne age 56 lodger, washer woman, born Kings County Ireland.

Carol

[ginny44]

Hi Carol

I know for sure that my gggg was called Simon because I have a copy of his daughters marriage cert, Ellen Mangan born 1878 who married my ggg grandfather Henry Murphy in Liverpool, which states her father as Simon and occupation shoemaker....although I have learnt not to take anything for granted. 

I learnt from  the census that Simon may have called himself James, although, for all I know James may have been his middle name or vice versa.  On the 1891 census his wife Johanna is down as a widow, but looking at what you found, I think he may have left her and gone to work elsewhere.

I think I need to get a copy of Ellen's birth certificate to find out her mothers maiden name, so I think that's my next step, but I'm finding this interest of mine a bit too expensive.

I got the name Kirena from the census when Simon is down as James but the rest of the family including his wife's name Johanna fits.  It says that he came from Kirena in Ireland.

I think it was on the  1871/1881 census, but as I no longer have access to ancestry I can't take another look.

Thanks again for your very much appreciated help.

Gina

[Cog]

HI Gina

this fella is definitely very elusive and must be really driving you mad !!

I took a look on the census pages that you mention James Mangan, it was the 1871 census but it only says Ireland and not the town, also he is down as a "Provisions Dealer" and not shoemaker.  Although I agree it looks like the same family, unless you know for sure that he used the name James as well as Simon, I wouldn't count on it.  The 1881 census is as far as I can see the only census where they are all together.  As Simon is not with them in the 1891 census and Johanna states she is a widow I would be inclined to find out if Simon had died by then, if not you could take it that the Simon I found in Bilston could possibly be him.  Simon is not a very common name at that time.  I am not sure but I dont think that marriage certs would have the mothers maiden name on them, I have only had dealings with Irish ones and they dont mention the mother at all and some not even the Father !  As I said before the Simon in Bilston states he was born in Kilrush, County Clare and this man is the only Simon Mangan I can find on the census pages of England in any county that matches his description.  St Senans  RC Church. Toler Street, Kilrush, County Clare,  dont charge anything for looking up Baptisms, they are really friendly and helpful, if you can wait until August I can take a look for you when I go over, but you might want to sort it out before then !  I will keep my eyes peeled for you.

Carol