Author Topic: McCARROLL - GAFFIGAN Marriage, 1912. Where were the banns posted?  (Read 10405 times)

Offline jj.carroll

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Re: McCARROLL - GAFFIGAN Marriage, 1912. Where were the banns posted?
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 05 August 10 03:55 BST (UK) »
aberjed,

What I am wondering is just what it is that you are saying.  I am rather confused by your commentary because what we know is what is on these pages.  Agnes somehow or other went to Ireland to be wed to Michael (my grandparents).  We do not know just when, or how, or what - only that they were wed at St. Patrick's in Dundalk, and Agnes was not pregnant so that is not the reason for the marriage there.

We don't know if there were banns; but with Catholics at that time they were usually posted.  So we don't know, and I have tried to find out these things from St. Patrick's - even going there in 1982 and again about ten years after that first time.  Then I tried to get them to respond, going through the Bishop - but to no avail.  So we don't know if they were issued or held by licence, nor what document you refer to about the marriage that was allowed to take place.

We do have that marriage registration certificate, only that there was a registration that took place and we received a copy - but it does not tell if it was by licence or after banns.  It was issued by the GRO and it is a Form A of the Registration of Marriages Act of 1863.  Although there were witnesses (John "Gagan" and Mary Margaret "Hamell"), we have no idea of who they were or what was their status.

 :'(  So, if I am a bit confused over what you posted, you might want to clarify just what it is that you would like to share with us. I have shared what we know, except the things that we have attempted to ascertain involving that marriage.  As you can tell, we have butted up against brick walls but they have a way of falling apart over time, brick by brick.  :o

Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos.  Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.

Offline aghadowey

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Re: McCARROLL - GAFFIGAN Marriage, 1912. Where were the banns posted?
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 05 August 10 16:01 BST (UK) »
The banns of all marriages at this time would have been posted in the parish church of ireland ( anglican ) I believe, even for catholics
Actually, I believe this is incorrect. Banns are called in the parish (C. of I.) church of each party where it is a C. of I. marriage even if one party isn't C. of I.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline jj.carroll

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Re: McCARROLL - GAFFIGAN Marriage, 1912. Where were the banns posted?
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 25 September 18 22:23 BST (UK) »
After a long absence I am rejoining the board.  As a rather old man, I am a bit slower on the uptake and will probably not answer as fully as I have in the past.

I would like to answer one such general question with some of the roots that also been disturbed.

The question was why did the marriage take place here in Ireland when both of the parties were located in San Francisco, California?  Not being party to this marriage I can only speculate, but with some more understanding that I had before.

Let us assume for a moment that Mickey (what Michael was called) was already here in northern Ireand.  He may have been visiting his mother and siblings that were not in The City (what San Francisco is called); he may also have been called back due to the illness of his brother Patrick. There are many reasons why he could have been around Ireland at that time.  There has never been a definitive statement that the two of them were together prior to their marriage.

We need to address one of the brothers, that have been silent until now.  Patrick was a rather strange one, and there were stories about him.  But, he did travel back and forth between Eskrah and the City.  We do know that Patrick's moniker was "The Yank."  Mickey's other brother Thomas took up a calling as a grocer and was quite successful.  And Mickey evidently was successful in his own right, but we know little of his background in The City.  However, we do know that he took up citizenship and there is a record of that (but I won't be bothering the board with the details). It was a given that these McCarroll boys got to know the Gaffigans, especially a certain Agnes Bridget.

We can also assume that in their travels back and forth there is a record in 1908 of the arrival of Michael Joseph McCarroll (a possible error by the transcriber, had the age a bit off).  He was known then as a "saloon keeper."    This was of the arrival in Liverpool or Moville.

We do know that a Patrick McCarroll passed away in 1912 because his gravestone is close to the family plot in Eskragh, County Tyrone.  But we know little or nothing about his demise.

Now the timing is the thing here.  If Michael was here because of the sickness (we just don't know, having to assume it might be) it may be that the timing was such that Mickey took over his brother's interest and could not go back to San Francisco. While we can assume that might be the case, we just do not know.  There are many different things that a bit of research might uncover.

But, it does fit in form Agnes Bridget's trip to Ireland to marry Michael J. McCarroll. 

This board did raise, by implication, some of the questions that have questionable answers that have been opined here.  Until we are offered differing answers, with more data behind them, the death of Patrick and the marriage of Mickey and Agnes makes a lot of sense, giving that the two things occurred in 1912.

jj.carroll
Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos.  Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.

Offline dathai

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Offline jj.carroll

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Re: McCARROLL - GAFFIGAN Marriage, 1912. Where were the banns posted?
« Reply #13 on: Friday 12 October 18 22:02 BST (UK) »
 ;D Thank you very much.  We  could not  get this originally.  It was a nice thing that you attempted to obtain the witnesses, and Mr. Grogan resides nearly next door and your observation that he was a sacristan is probably right on.  The second witness, Mary Margaret (Od)mile, really was lost in attempting to use her last name. 

I would have liked to attempt to make something of it, but could not interpret the first two letters.

It was significant that Michael McCarroll gave as his residence at that time the town of Beragh.  Mr. P. J.McClean of Beragh did describe relatives living in Curr (very close to Beragh).  It was the daughter  Mary, one of four children of Owen McCarroll and Bridget Conroy.  Owen was anohter son of Owen McCarroll and Catherine McCusker. Mary married Jack Donnelly.

P.J. McClean did provide some information on the Carrolls of that district.

However, there was another Carroll that owned the public house in Curr; I believe it may have been Owen who made some significant purchases of property.  This was identified as 23a and 25, a licensed house, shop, and post office.  I met with some people at the pub in 1982, but have no recollection of the meeting.

 :-\ Someone in that region around Beragh was a counselor.

Again, thank you for this work you have done.  It begins to shed a little light on my grandparents.

jjc
Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos.  Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.

Offline jj.carroll

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Re: McCARROLL - GAFFIGAN Marriage, 1912. Where were the banns posted?
« Reply #14 on: Friday 12 October 18 22:45 BST (UK) »
 ???  We have the marriage license of Michael Joseph McCarroll and Agnes Bridget Gaffigan.  It was issued in Dundalk County Louth, 29 July 1912.

 :-\ We seem to believe (because there are various degrees a assurance, like manifests) that the two did not travel together, that Mickey was in Ireland at the time that Agnes came over and landed in  County Cork.

 :o  We have as an address that Micky was living at that time in Beragh when they married.

 :P  We have them at Georges Street in Omagh soon after (or maybe not so soon) because my father was born two years later at that address.

And we have them domiciled in Fintona, County Tyrone, where they had a public house, shoe store under the stairs, a horse auctioneer, and a cabinet maker (who made caskets).  They lived upstairs and stayed there until Michael J. McCarroll passed away in 1924.

What we seem to be missing  ??? is the time between staying in Beragh and going to Omagh.  We have his nephew Charles working or owning a public house on the main street in downtown Omagh.  Had Michael owned a public house in Omagh, which he sold to take up one in Fintona?  He had the cash from San Francisco to be able to purchase a public house but we have no actual knowledge of that.  It would make some sense for him to want to be near his mother in the Fintona area, especially since Michael had arrived.  But we are speculating.  :D

Datha got our juices rising, but we still have a brick wall to over come.
Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos.  Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.

Offline jj.carroll

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Re: McCARROLL - GAFFIGAN Marriage, 1912. Where were the banns posted?
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 13 October 18 01:36 BST (UK) »
 :-[  We have to eliminate Patrick's death as a "cause" for Michael McCarroll's staying in Ireland. 

The official record noted that a Michael McCarroll was present at his demise, and indicated that it was his brother.  The death took place in June, 1912. I finally went back and although it was a timely death, his age was given as 50; and the cause was tuberculous as. The timing was correct, in that the sickness was over a three month period. But our Patrick was only 39, having been born in 1973.
 
jjc  ::)
Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos.  Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.

Offline dathai

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Re: McCARROLL - GAFFIGAN Marriage, 1912. Where were the banns posted?
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 13 October 18 10:58 BST (UK) »
I dont think the Patrick who died 1912 is your family
he died at Mount Stewart
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1912/05357/4493048.pdf

1901 at Mount Stewart with his mother Anne (possibly Anne McKenna )
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Aghintain/Mount_Stewart/1726655/

1902 Patrick McCarroll of Mount Stewart son of Patrick McCarroll married Bridget Early
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1902/10284/5743074.pdf

1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Aghintain/Mount_Stewart/856435/

1889 Michael McCarroll of Mount Stewart son of Patrick McCarroll married Mary Anne Moore
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10723/5909788.pdf

1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Draughton/Lisnacreeve/1743107/

1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Draughton/Lisnacreeve/871769/

cant quite make out the address on Patrick's death cert that Michael has given as informant   looks like Tilnacrieve to me but perhaps someone with better knowledge of the area may read this and tell you if its the same place.

Offline jj.carroll

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Re: McCARROLL - GAFFIGAN Marriage, 1912. Where were the banns posted?
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 13 October 18 15:07 BST (UK) »
This development, having all of the records, really locked it down.  The Mount Stewart thing with his mother was very final for our Patrick.

I spent some time looking for him, and his possible death.  I drew a blank, even going to San Francisco where his brother Thomas was located (and doing well, I would say).  But no Patrick around then.  At least in the public records.

That puts us back to the reasoning of why Michael McCarroll was a resident of this area. 

Beragh and Curr is near Greenmont.  That Bed n' Breakfast was equally away from Eskragh and Corkhill to Fintona.  It was a very nice area when I was staying at Greenmont.

Thank you dathai, confirmation is a great thing! 
Carroll, McCarroll, McCusker and McCosker from County Tyrone. Then there are Dillen for Derry, Gaffigan, McGaffigan, Crennan, and Amos.  Now adding: Leonard, Berry, and Gahagan from Strokestown, County Roscommon, also Gahigan, Hounihan, and Whonohan and another branch of Carrolls from County Cork.