Author Topic: Goldsmiths of Hellingly/Stones of Hythe  (Read 32085 times)

Offline rumpuscat

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Goldsmiths of Hellingly/Stones of Hythe
« on: Friday 09 November 07 20:14 GMT (UK) »
It is a rumour in the family that the Goldsmiths were gypsies.  Certainly some of them were travellers/hawkers at one time or another, but others have said that they were Particular Baptists.  Thomas and Keziah (nee Townsend) Goldsmith of Hellingly had several children including Kezia and Moses.  Kezia married Richard Stone of Hythe and Moses married Richard's sister Sarah.  Another sister Diana Stone married Joseph Gess.

Moses/Sarah and Diana/Joseph ended up at Sittingbourne, Kent, as did Richard Stone after Kezia had died.

If anyone has any further info about these convoluted connections I would be pleased to hear about them!
=^._.^=

Rumpuscat

FAIRHALL (Sussex, London, Notts)
LINSEY (Lincs, Notts)
OVENDEN (Kent, London)
ANGERSTEIN (London)
SPICER, CORNS, VALE (Staffs)

Offline casalguidi

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Re: Goldsmiths of Hellingly/Stones of Hythe
« Reply #1 on: Friday 09 November 07 21:17 GMT (UK) »
I can add a little. 

1871 census at 4 Gladstone Terrace, Sittingbourne - Sarah A ROBERTS age 13 b.Aldington, Ashford was listed as niece to Joseph & Diana (nee STONE) GESS.

Sarah A ROBERTS was the daughter of Adam ROBERTS and Priscilla Frances STONE who married 26 Dec 1853 St Mary Northgate, Canterbury, Kent.  Priscilla Frances STONE was baptised 26 June 1836 St Mary Northgate, Canterbury dau of Thomas & Elizabeth STONE.  The ROBERTS were also travellers and Adam settled in Sittingbourne.

Assuming that this is the same Thomas and Elizabeth STONE who were having children baptised in Hythe 1820s/1830s then there is a William STONE (baptised Hythe 1824 son of Thomas & Elizabeth) who married Mary RANSLEY at St Mary Northgate, Canterbury 14 Jul 1845.  This branch of the RANSLEYs were travellers too.

Casalguidi :)
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline rumpuscat

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Re: Goldsmiths of Hellingly/Stones of Hythe
« Reply #2 on: Friday 09 November 07 23:31 GMT (UK) »
Thank you.  I was fairly sure about the Roberts connection but didn't know whether Priscilla Frances was a half sister to the others who were born several years earlier.  I didn't know about William so that is interesting that his mother was also Elizabeth.  I have not been able to find baptisms for Diana, Richard or Sarah but according to the censuses they were born between 1818 and 1828 so William would fit right in the middle.
=^._.^=

Rumpuscat

FAIRHALL (Sussex, London, Notts)
LINSEY (Lincs, Notts)
OVENDEN (Kent, London)
ANGERSTEIN (London)
SPICER, CORNS, VALE (Staffs)


Offline casalguidi

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Re: Goldsmiths of Hellingly/Stones of Hythe
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 10 November 07 11:47 GMT (UK) »
I have had another look at some of my old notes and, in total, have 7 possible siblings to date:

c1817 Richard (b.Hythe/Hellingly/Canterbury) married Keziah GOLDSMITH (at Dover if my memory serves me correctly - have marriage details but can't find them right now)

c1818 Diana (b.Newington/Hythe/Sth Canterbury) married Joseph GESS 1840

1824 William baptised 25 Jan Hythe (parents Thomas & Elizabeth - from baptism entry) married Mary RANSLEY - to be confirmed by marriage cert.

c1929 Sarah (b.Sellindge/Ashford) married Moses GOLDSMITH at Ashford (father Thomas - from marriage entry)

1830 Thomas baptised 12 Mar Hythe (parents Thomas & Elizabeth) appears to have married Patience (PENFOLD?)- and possibly Rye RD 1851

1832 Eleanor baptised 30 Jan Hythe (parents Thomas & Elizabeth)

1836 Priscilla Frances baptised 26 Jun St Mary Northgate, Canterbury (parents Thomas & Elizabeth) married Adam ROBERTS

Unfortunately, I don't appear to have baptisms for Diana, Richard or Sarah either.

Casalguidi :)
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline rumpuscat

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Re: Goldsmiths of Hellingly/Stones of Hythe
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 10 November 07 15:45 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for your help.  The Goldsmiths/Stones are part of my partner's family and whilst researching have got in touch with a cousin of his who emigrated to Australia about 50 years ago.  I offered to help her this end and she would love to know whether her ancestors were gypsies.  She says that her mother strongly denied this and said that they were Particular Baptists.  We know that some of the family were travellers and  I know little about it but I'm sure that travellers are not necessarily gypsies.
=^._.^=

Rumpuscat

FAIRHALL (Sussex, London, Notts)
LINSEY (Lincs, Notts)
OVENDEN (Kent, London)
ANGERSTEIN (London)
SPICER, CORNS, VALE (Staffs)

Offline casalguidi

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Re: Goldsmiths of Hellingly/Stones of Hythe
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 10 November 07 18:32 GMT (UK) »
Looking at the fuller picture, especially for the STONES who appear to have married into like families, I would say that they were Gypsies/Travellers, yes and, political correctness aside, I would class them the same though some would beg to differ.  As to whether there is a full Romany lineage, I'm not sure that many of us can be absolutely certain of any such ancestry.

I don't know anything about the GOLDSMITHs prior to the marriage of Moses & Sarah but names appearing ie. Diana, Abraham, Moses, Keziah might lead one to assume another denomination other than C of E - have you found evidence of any non-conformity within the research into the family?  I have a note that Moses could sign his name (from the original marriage entry) - perhaps a little unusual for a traveller?

As an aside, a late great aunt of mine (from a travelling family) was absolutely mortified (she told me so herself) when, having moved to a "nicer" area to "better" herself, she found that her neighbours mother knew her from their youth ;)

Casalguidi :)
Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline rumpuscat

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Re: Goldsmiths of Hellingly/Stones of Hythe
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 10 November 07 19:20 GMT (UK) »
This particular Goldsmith family (Thomas and Keziah nee Townsend) had two or three children named at the Baptist Chapel at Hailsham around 1812-1813.  Later they had about six children baptised at Hellingly Church in one go (1821), including the ones who had been named.

The Townsends were from Ripe and there is no suggestion that they were travellers.  Thomas and Keziah were married at Ripe (IGI) and lived there, then Firle and eventually Hellingly.  They were living at Hellingly when at least one child was named at Hailsham.
=^._.^=

Rumpuscat

FAIRHALL (Sussex, London, Notts)
LINSEY (Lincs, Notts)
OVENDEN (Kent, London)
ANGERSTEIN (London)
SPICER, CORNS, VALE (Staffs)

Offline rebekahm28

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Re: Goldsmiths of Hellingly/Stones of Hythe
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 24 March 09 17:43 GMT (UK) »
Rumpuscat, my direct ancestor was Jane Sharwood (gypsy) born 1790 in Kent. I had given hope of getting further back until I discovered a Kent baptism for a Jane Sharwood, the mother was Barbara GOLDSMITH. I am 90% sure its my Jane, if so then Barbara may tie in with your tree. She married William Sharwood.


IMPORTANT EDIT!!  Someone has very kindly viewed the actual baptism entry of Jane Sharwood for me, her parents were William and Barbara Sharwood from GOLDSWOTH, Cheshire.  Not a mums maiden name of Goldsmith!!  I can find no Goldswoth or Goldsworth in Cheshire though, so the mystery continues.  They were travellers.
Casaubon (Geneva, London), Daulinge, Berners, McMullen (Nottingham), Tabb (Leics), Mycock (Derbys & Staffs), Gilbert (Notts), Price (s Wales), Krilovs/similar, gypsy Roberts, gypsy Clark, Bexell (Sussex), gypsy Elliott, Raven, Neligan (Co Kerry), Rymer, Newton (Hull).

Offline shaneooo

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Re: Goldsmiths of Hellingly/Stones of Hythe
« Reply #8 on: Monday 27 April 09 23:17 BST (UK) »
It is a rumour in the family that the Goldsmiths were gypsies.  Certainly some of them were travellers/hawkers at one time or another, but others have said that they were Particular Baptists.  Thomas and Keziah (nee Townsend) Goldsmith of Hellingly had several children including Kezia and Moses.  Kezia married Richard Stone of Hythe and Moses married Richard's sister Sarah.  Another sister Diana Stone married Joseph Gess.

Moses/Sarah and Diana/Joseph ended up at Sittingbourne, Kent, as did Richard Stone after Kezia had died.

If anyone has any further info about these convoluted connections I would be pleased to hear about them!
Im a direct descendent of moses and sarah my ggg granparents, my family still live the romany life albeit on our own land, bought from ovenden in 2001 !
more info on thomas and keziah would be appreciated and how they link with the ovenden name.
kushti bok, shane goldsmith.
Baker, kent
Goldsmith, kent
Perfect, kent
Rattigan, moate eire
Pennell, thanet, Faversham