Joseph John MANNERS

[Josh P]

The first appearance of Joseph John MANNERS is his marriage to Eleanor Mary
FOSTER at St. Marylebone, London, in 1866, when he claimed to be the son of David MANNERS, a soldier.
With no sign of him in 1841, 1851 or 1861, JJM subsequently appears in the 1871, 1881 and 1891 census returns, in all of which he claimed to have been born 1840/1 at Chatham, Kent.  He died at Belford, Northumberland, in 1895.
For years my family have searched for JJM's origins, but nothing prior to the marriage in 1866 has been found, nor any sign of his military father, David.
Perhaps JJM was born at Chatham just before his father's departure overseas, and was therefore never christened?  He spent his adult life as a coachman to aristocrats, so did he learn his horsemanship skills in his father's regiment?
The single possible hint of JJM's orgins is the story of an inherited painting of Lady Huntingtower (now 'lost'!), copied from an original by Millais.  The family tale was that we descend from her.  I have explored the Barons Huntingtower, who were certainly Manners family-related, but no sign of a David or a Joseph John.
So what am I missing here?  I feel as though I have exhausted every avenue, but if anyone has any insights, I would be most delighted to hear!  Thank you.

[aghadowey]

If the father was a soldier perhaps the family were not in England for 1841-1861 census. Maybe Ireland? or someplace further away? Or perhaps name is mis-indexed.

[Barbara F]

Hello Josh and welcome to Rootschat.

We like a good mystery here so I hope we will be able to help you.

Is Joseph's age at the time of his marriage consistent with a birth in 1840/41?  Also, who were the witnesses to the marriage?

I will have a delve in the censuses 

Barbara

[Josh P]

Age on marriage: "full age"
Witnesses: Henry WATSON [unknown], Elizabeth FOSTER [bride's mother or younger sister]
Residence of both: 23, Great Cumberland Mews, Marylebone.

[Josh P]

Thank you for your interest.  I have wondered about Ireland, but am absolutely flummoxed as to where I begin to try to trace the family when I have no idea about a possible regiment.
JJM's wife kept a little birthday book, but her notes are so brief as to have proven to be no help whatsoever!  The following are assumed to be relations, but none coincide with names already explored in the National Indeces.  Certificates have been ordered for the few possibiliteis, but none match her notes:

W. Manners - 1st March
W. M. - 13th March 1848
Grandmother's - 1st June [this is not her mother, or either grandmother, so perhaps JJM's mother?]
J. Manners - 23rd November [presumably JJM himself]
O. L. M. - 19th February 1884.

Frustratingly little to go on!

[Josh P]

The first census in which Joseph John MANNERS appears, 1871, he was recorded as coachman to Lord Hertford, at Ragley Hall, Warwickshire.  This suggests he had had some pretty fine training - again, military? 
In 1881, he was in mews just off Oxford Street, London. 
In 1891, his last census return, he was stud groom to Major Browne (of JJM's father's old regiment?) at Callalay Castle, Northumberland, and yet on his death in 1895, JJM was publican of the Balck Swan, Belford, Northumberland.  Family tale was that he was so grief stricken upon his wife's death that he got drunk and fell down the cellar stairs to his death - and yet there was no mention of his passing in the local newspaper, which seems odd as he was the local landlord!
Equally, no servants' records for either Ragley or Callalay can be found.  Dead ends at every turn!

[Barbara F]

The marriage certificate is not very helpful then!

Have you checked the Chatham PRs for a baptism? They are available on Cityark
http://cityark.medway.gov.uk/

I wonder whether Joseph was either illegitimate or his mother was widowed and then married again.  In either case he might appear under a different surname.

Barbara

[Barbara F]

Hello again Josh

I have had no luck with the censuses.  I have checked through the baptisms at St Mary Chatham but again with no luck.

Which sources have you searched for a birth registration?

Would it be worth trying to find out who was stationed in Chatham around 1840 to perhaps get a link for David?  Or have you done this already?

Barbara

[Josh P]

Having great problems getting my messages posted on the site.  I have lost two in the last hour! 
Thank you for all your ideas and suggestions.  Still searching Cityark.  No luck with regiments at Chatham, as there were too many passing through, I am informed. 
The first known employer of Joseph John Manners was General Francis Seymour, later 5th Marquis of Hertford.  Could they have been in the same regiment and were stable hands or grooms who worked with cavalry regiments necessarily signed-up soldiers?  I have yet to find an answer.