Author Topic: Audley William Bestall b.1848/50  (Read 7089 times)

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Audley William Bestall b.1848/50
« Reply #36 on: Monday 15 April 19 09:24 BST (UK) »
Aghadowey, there is a separate page which I started. Unfortunately it didnít get any further back, hallmark and dathai did manage to find some answers for me with regards to going forward  1890í- 1960 and it was great.
Here's your other topic- it's too bad you didn't direct Shazza092324 to that topic to keep you family's posts together but too late now.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=798592.0

A lot of marriage records pre 1860 canít be viewed yet, nor deaths- only the name but no details.
Do you mean Irish Genealogy civil records? registration of Catholic marriages didn't start until 1864. Hopefully more records will be added soon (there's at least one topic about that here on RC)

I can modify my recent posts to show no text apart from a dot or I can ask the moderator to remove them completely if you want but that will leave hallmark, yourself, dathai with replies to posts which I will have removed resulting in it looking odd.  I have no problem modifying or removing them but need to know quickly as I believe after a certain point modifying cant be done, therefore if I modify  the recent ones it would be best if the three of you did the same.
You can only modify your own posts within 24 hours. Moderators can split replies, etc. but this thread is now too jumbled to start doing that. Deleting information already posted or entire posts is not Rootschat policy unless the posts contain spam, abusive language, etc.

I can't see any links yet between your family and these Bestalls (well educated, property owners, etc.). Anything is possible and there may be a link much further back but difficult to find records to prove or disprove at this point.
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Offline aghadowey

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Re: Audley William Bestall b.1848/50
« Reply #37 on: Monday 15 April 19 09:31 BST (UK) »
Death of Catherine (Manning) Bestall wife of William Law Bestall-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1889/06153/4758034.pdf

More on the descendants of William Law Bestall-

William Law Bestall (c1821-19 Mar.1904 Templelyon), farmer, m.(1873 Rathmines, Dublin) Elizabeth Maria Ffrench (alive 1911)
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Dunganstown_South/Templelyon_Upper/1814832
Wicklow News-Letter and County Advertiser, 2 Apr.1904: DEATHS. Bestall- March 29, 1904, at Templelyon, Redcross, County Wicklow, William Law Bestall, aged _ years. 
1911- Elizabeth with son Digby
1. Richard Henry Bestall (1873 Templelyon-1879)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03163/2160357.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1879/06530/4881755.pdf
2. Sarah Bestall (1875)
3. Catherine Vivian Bestall (1878 Templelyon-aft.1901)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02944/2078636.pdf
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Louth/Westgate__Drogheda_Town/West_Street/1568032 (Vivian K. Bestall, governess)
4. William Law Allen Bestall (1880 Templelyon) m.(1911 Toronto) Georgina Florence Bestall (c1883 Co. Wexford), dau. of Abraham Bestall & Jane Hall Bolton
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02853/2045675.pdf
Marriage https://homepages.rootsweb.com/~maryc/tor1911new.htm William Law BESTALL, 30, constable, of 141 Gorevale, s/o William Law BESTALL, farmer (dead) & Elizabeth FRENCH, married Groegina Florence BESTALL, 26, of 141 Gorevale, d/o Georgina Florence BESTALL (sic), doctor (dead), & Jane Hall BOLTON, witn: Charles E. STANLEY of 738 Markham St. & E.L. MORROW of 939 Bathurst, 4 Oct 1911
5. Charles Albert Bestall (1882-1893 Templelyon), son of William
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02773/2018142.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1893/06012/4711406.pdf
6. Digby George Bestall (1884 Templelyon-aft.1955) m.(1905) Jane Greaves Woodroofe
7. (Robert) Frederick Bestall (1886 Templelyon-1954 Templelyon)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1886/02594/1958304.pdf
1911- Frederick Bestall with brother Digby
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1955/04437/4159983.pdf
8. Henry Allen Bestall (1888 Templelyon-1974 B.C.) m. Mary Ann Brittain
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1888/02497/1926325.pdf
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLB2-5Q8
9. Elizabeth Ethel Lillian ďElsieĒ Bestal (c1893) m.(1919 London) Walter T. Biscoe

Digby George Bestall (1884 Templelyon-aft.1955) m.(1905) Jane Greaves Woodroofe
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1884/02704/1995757.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1905/10153/5694615.pdf
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Dunganstown_South/Templelyon__Upper/895853
1. William Law Henry Bestall (1906 Templelyon-1942)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1906/01731/1684400.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1942/04686/4249564.pdf
2. Vivian Maria Elizabeth Bestall (1908 Templelyon) m.(1927) Edward Johnson
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01646/1657558.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1927/09110/5295337.pdf
3. Haidaa Jane Greaves Bestall (1910 Templelyon) m.(1929) Charles Heavener
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01562/1630684.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1929/09070/5281544.pdf
4. Frederick Robert Bestall (1913 Templelyon-aft.1942)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1913/01454/1594087.pdf
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Offline aghadowey

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Re: Audley William Bestall b.1848/50
« Reply #38 on: Monday 15 April 19 09:35 BST (UK) »
George Augustus Bestall (c1822-1902 Chicago), eldest son, m.(1847 Urney) Margaret Caldwell (c1827-19 Sept.1861 Forttown House, Caslederg), dau. of Audley Caldwell
Marriage https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGVD-VKMM
Londonderry Sentinel, 27 Feb.1847: On the 25th inst., at Urney Church, by the Rev. Mr. Rodgers, George, eldest son of William Law Bestall, Esq., Templelyon, county Wicklow, to Margaret, eldest daughter of Audley Caldwell, Esq., Castletown House, Strabane.
Londonderry Sentinel, 27 Sept.1861: September 19, at the Forttown House, Castlederg, Margaret, wife of Mr. George Bestall, aged 34 years.
To the memory of Audley CALDWELL late of the Forttown who entered into life eternal on the 14th of October 1859 aged 60 years  also of Frederick LAW youngest son of Margaret BESTALL who departed this life on 21st June 1860 aged 5 years also of his mother Margaret BESTALL eldest daughter of Audley CALDWELL who exchanged mortality for life on the 19th of September 1861 aged 34 years also James Audley second son of the late Audley CALDWELL, Esqr of Forttown who died 28th September 1877 aged 47.
1. Charlotte Elizabeth Bestall (1847-27 June 1932) m.(1881 Victoria Terrace, Ballymacarrett, Belfast) Hugh Alexander Campbell (d.10 Apr.1921), draper, Ballynahinch. Raised in America?
Londonderry Sentinel, 27 Nov.1847: November 13th, at Castletown House, county Tyrone, the lady of George Bestall, Esq., of a daughter.
Marriage https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1881/11006/8024505.pdf
2. Audley William John Bestall (1848/1850 Castlederg?-30 June 1920 Hillsborough) m.1  Mary Jane Caldwell; m.2 Mary Patterson Campbell
3. George James Bestall (c1853 Creduff, Tyrone-8 July 1902 Chicago) m.(1874 W. Derby) Annie Gray (c1845-J/M 1883 Liverpool) m.(1890 Philadelphia) Jane Caldwell, ?m.(3 Mar.1902 Chicago) Alma Bloomberg. Family already posted.
4. Frederick Law Bestall (c1855-21 June 1860)
Londonderry Sentinel, 29 June 1860: June 21, at Forthtown House, Castlederg, Frederick Law, the beloved child of George Bestall, Esq., aged 5 years and 4 months.
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Offline aghadowey

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Re: Audley William Bestall b.1848/50
« Reply #39 on: Monday 15 April 19 09:40 BST (UK) »
Abraham Bestal (1835-1892) m.(1875) Jane Hall Bolton (d.1936 Eng.)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1875/11212/8109723.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1892/06048/4723204.pdf
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Ballygarrett/Mangan_Lower/1795168
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wexford/Killenagh/Raheen_Park/686150
1. William Law Bestall (1877 Gorey-1939 Queens, NY) m.(1907 NY) Charlotte Lydia deLong
2. Catherine Evangeline Bestall (1879)
3. John Allen Bolton Bestall (1880-1968)
4. Georgina Florence Bestall (c1883 Co.Wexford) m.(1911 Toronto) William Law Allen Bestall

Dr. Robert McCausland Bestall (1840-1884) m. Mary Eleanor Nina Askins (c1851-1926). Could be other children.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Pembroke_East___Donnybrook/Claremount_Road/1284834
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1926/04986/4359814.pdf
1. Norah Elizabeth Bestall (1872)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03263/2196146.pdf
2. Robert Frederick Bestall (1873-1939), architect
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03175/2164598.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1939/04751/4272703.pdf
3. Maud Mary Bestall (1874-aft.1911)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1875/03116/2142841.pdf
4. Hilda Bestall (1877)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1878/02967/2087022.pdf
5. Mary Bestall (c1877-1948)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1948/04556/4202769.pdf
6. Florence Bestall (1881-1955)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1881/02831/2037990.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1955/04431/4157797.pdf

Note: the family tree posted is not complete but should sort out the family a bit more and correct previous questions & errors posted in this thread.
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Offline Bernie12

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Re: Audley William Bestall b.1848/50
« Reply #40 on: Monday 15 April 19 11:37 BST (UK) »
Hello Aghadowey, Iím still able to modify most recent posts to a dot, let me know if you want that done. I've contacted  the moderator asking them to remove my posts so that Audleyís board is clearer,  as mentioned my recent posts on this board was because I didnít want to appear rude but it is muddying the waters for Audley.

More than likely they are related via a common ancestor (particularly since both strains come from Rathdrum). There are official and shameful reasons why RC and others werenít formally educated for a lengthy period of time (centuries), prior to that a lot of RC were educated in Irish Gaelic till that was banned.

Iíve also been told and have read that if a COI person married an RC person during the period of education being stopped for RC that the COI person was officially disowned (perhaps not lovingly disowned but definitely officially) and not only that their children were banned from being educated.  I have no affiliation to either religion

In fact I have 2 ministers in my family born in the late 1700ís  (one was a pilgrim minister who emigrated to America re missions),  there is a painting of him in the 1800ís in a well known university. The other minister wasnít a pilgrim but was the head  minister of his parish. These ministers are linked to the Bestall family via other sources of marriage and are blood relations.

Iíve found many more mixed marriages for both sides of my family in Ireland and it is possible that is what happened re the Bestallís of Wicklow in my family. However I still have to prove it which isnít easy at the moment but will still continue to look.

Re RC marriages pre 1864 Iíve managed to find one yesterday in Wicklow dated 1855, looks like some are there but not all, they can be found in find my past. No doubt some will be in an unreadable state and others lost in the fire. I believe lots of Wicklow records were lost in the fire sadly.

I also have RC marriage records from other counties in Ireland pre 1864 with regards to my other side of the family. Hopefully more will be available soon and the link can be gotten

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Re: Audley William Bestall b.1848/50
« Reply #41 on: Monday 15 April 19 12:27 BST (UK) »



Listening to too much gossip!


e.g.


 Maynooth College was founded in 1795 as a seminary for the education of priests and by 1850 had become the largest seminary in the world. 

The College was founded because it was urgently needed. In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries it had not been possible to educate Catholic priests in Ireland. Institutions had been established in Catholic Europe, where they had become concentrated in France. The French Revolution confiscated all of these in 1792 and 1793. In Ireland the Penal Code was being dismantled, and the British Government, at war with revolutionary France, was anxious to placate Irish Catholic dissatisfactions, and certainly did not wish to see Ďrevolutionaryí priests returning from the continent. In consequence, a petition to Parliament by the Irish Catholic Bishops was successful, and ĎAn Act for the better education of persons professing the Popish or Roman Catholic religioní was passed in June 1795. It provided a modest grant to establish a college.




R.C's were educated!!





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Re: Audley William Bestall b.1848/50
« Reply #42 on: Monday 15 April 19 12:33 BST (UK) »


Another...


Charles Gavan Duffy was born in Monaghan Town on the 12th April 1816. The son of a Catholic shopkeeper, his parents died when he was very young and he was raised by his uncle Father James Duffy, the Parish Priest of Castleblayney.   Duffy was educated at St Malachyís college in Belfast and was admitted to the Irish Bar in 1845.



What is omitted is that he attended the C of I school in Monaghan prior to college!!



Daniel O'Connell was a Barrister.....

Offline Bernie12

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Re: Audley William Bestall b.1848/50
« Reply #43 on: Monday 15 April 19 13:38 BST (UK) »
Itís not gossip, Priests were educated as the powers that Be didnít want further uprisings since the one in the late 1600ís but it was difficult for poorer people to get that education due to costs and lack of facilities. I have saw the post before of a catholic being educated in an COI Trinity College, it appears to be a rare occurrence. The problem lies further back to the 1600ís and into the late 1700ís whereby atrocious laws existed.

I have no preference for either religion and I donít  know all  the ins and outs of what went on but it is true RC in the main at that time were kept down by law and although these laws were later repealed it took years on end to sort things out properly. Poorer Presbyterians also faced problems with being educated.

Here are a few examples of such facts and laws which caused impact into the 1800ís

* no doubt this one applied to all children regardless of religion *  -  If you were a child in the early nineteenth century you were not able to go to a national school paid for by the government because they did not exist until the 1830's. Large numbers of children still went to school in the 1800's but in most cases they had to pay to attend so if you were poor or had a big family it would have been unlikely all children from a poor family if any  were able to attend school at that time. Perhaps even being only able to afford educating one child.
* Exclusion of Catholics from most public offices (since 1607), Presbyterians were also barred from public office from 1707.
* Ban on intermarriage with Protestants; repealed 1778
* Exclusion from the legal professions and the judiciary; repealed (respectively) 1793 and 1829
**** Bar to Catholics and Protestant Dissenters entering Trinity College Dublin; repealed 1793.****
*** On a death by a Catholic, his legatee could benefit by conversion to the Church of Ireland; ***
*** Popery Act Ė Catholic inheritances of land were to be equally subdivided between all an owner's sons with the exception that if the eldest son and heir converted to Protestantism that he would become the one and only tenant of estate and portions for other children not to exceed one third of the estate. This "Gavelkind" system had previously been abolished by 1600.***
* Ban on converting from Protestantism to Roman Catholicism on pain of Praemunire: forfeiting all property estates and legacy to the monarch of the time and remaining in prison at the monarch's pleasure. In addition, forfeiting the monarch's protection. No injury however atrocious could have any action brought against it or any reparation for such.
*** Ban on Catholics inheriting Protestant land***
* Prohibition on Catholics owning a horse valued at over £5 (to keep horses suitable for military activity out of the majority's hands)
* Roman Catholic lay priests had to register to preach under the Registration Act 1704, but seminary priests and Bishops were not able to do so until 1778
* When allowed, new Catholic churches were to be built from wood, not stone, and away from main roads.
* 'No person of the popish religion shall publicly or in private houses teach school, or instruct youth in learning within this realm' upon pain of twenty pounds fine and three months in prison for every such offence. Repealed in 1782.[8]
* Any and all rewards not paid by the crown for alerting authorities of offences to be levied upon the Catholic populace within parish and county

Sorry this is detracting from Audley again but Iím trying to point out why there was a possible disinheriting/disowning of William Bestal who was probably born between 1800-1840, perhaps even born earlier and more than likely related to Audley as both from Rathdrum.

Strangely enough the Bestall ancestors I have found so far appear to have been quite poor but out of that poorness and with some of the family struggling to obtain higher education due to costs, sacrifices were made and we have currently well educated family members some of which are surgeons, one of which who carries out the most complex and dangerous type of surgery you can get. So although there has been episodes of non education, the brains still clearly exist

Iím not posting on this thread again as enough has been said and has detracted from minimac Original post