Author Topic: McGeorge  (Read 12657 times)

Offline geordiepaul2001

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McGeorge
« on: Monday 17 December 07 20:04 GMT (UK) »
Hi all,

I am researching the possibility that the McGeorge family in my family tree originated from Kirkcudbrightshire in Scotland.
I have a James McGeorge born in Scotland, circa 1826.
He then moved to Newcastle Upon Tyne and married a Mary Setery in 1844.
On James birth certificate his Father is listed as a William McGeorge - a mason.

Through scotlandspeople the closest match I can find is one born in 1821 in the parish of parton.
I have no further proof at the moment and may be barking up the wrong tree.

Any help or advice would be most appreciated.

Paul
Mawson - Northumberland, North Yorkshire, Durham

McGeorge - Kirkcudbrightshire, Northumberland

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Offline AMBLY

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Re: McGeorge
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 18 December 07 02:02 GMT (UK) »
Hi Paul

I'm very  inclined to say you are right to be in Kirkcudbright, and very possibly in Parton.  McGEORGE was a common name there though, no doubt William and James were common amongst the forenames.

From your other General Scotland post - the suggestion was that James McGEORGE on the IGI as chr 1814 Parton Kirkcudbright was a possible match, given:--
a) His father was named William.
b) His mother was names Esther ALLCOCK.
c) Your James had an eldest son named William
d) Your James had a 2nd born Daughter named Esther in 1847 (her chr. is on IGI for 1847)

Scottish naming patterns were also very often closely followed in Scottish families.
(As was outlined on the other topic too)

It was also rightly mentioned -  it was a common habit, very often (but not exclusively in) Scottish families: where an child died, the next child born of the same gender was given the same name. So one poss scenario is that James 1814 died before or in 1821 and James 1821 was named after him.  I have also seen  cases where  a second child given the same name as an earlier one, also died - and then a 3rd was again named the same. So it's also possible, James 1821 died, and another was born 1825 ish.  But just as possible, James 1821 is from a different set of parents.

I  will also add:
The IGI entry for James chr 1814 is submitted - not Extracted, so for whatever reason -it could be wrong on the dates.

Your James was a Coal Miner and his Census age 1851 to 1891 does waver a bit -  indicating birth anywhere between 1823 to 1826. Generally though, to me it seems as if the earlier range 1823 to 1824 is more likely. Is his the 1898 death in  South Shields age 75? Born abt 1823?

What was his marriage age (or is it just "Full Age"?)
Also wondering, who the marriage witness were and what his address was given as?

In 1851 he is  in Long Benton, Northuimberland - age 28 (YOB abt 1823)
In 1861 he  is in Hetton Le Hole, Durham age 35 (YOB abt 1826)
In 1871 he is in Seaton Dealval  Seghill age 46 (YOB abt 1825)
In 1881: He is in Gateshead DUR age 58 (YOB 1823)
In 1891: He is Wardley, Heworth DUR age 67 (YOB 1824).

I can't find him in 1841 though? Do you know where he is - possibly he was down the pit, and missed being enumerated - this was common with Miners.

I believe your James was the son of William McGEORGE and Esther ALLCOCK.....and he had a bunch of siblings in the Durham Northumberland area - and a mother.

But - possibly  the only hope you are going to have of confirming your James' birth family, is to follow these likely siblings and hope that somewhere, you will find a person connected to James that you can connect back to the others - be it a Census entry, a marriage address, a marriage witness, naming patterns etc.........

Cheers
AMBLY

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

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Offline AMBLY

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Re: McGeorge
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 18 December 07 02:13 GMT (UK) »
IGI Issue to parents named William McGEORGE and Esther ALLCOCK:
John -  chr 29 Nov  1807 Skelton, Cumberland (extracted)
James  - chr 27 Jun 1814 Parton Kirkudbright (submitted)
Maria Fletcher - 18 Oct 1818 Parton Kirkudbright (extracted)
Esther 13 Dec 1824 Parton Kirkudbright (extracted)

(Note another common thing, for a woman to have at least her first baby in her own parish, where her own mother was.......)

Unless something was happening to  keep William away from home and from the comforts of his wife, it seems very likely  there are  a number  births/christenings of children not on  the IGI for this couple.

This may be why :   See a set of messages from 2004 postings on Rootsweb.........."
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/SCT-KIRKCUDBRIGHTSHIRE/2004-01/1074537533

Quote: " There are huge gaps in some of the Parish Registers in Kirkcudbrightshire.
No marriage registers exist for Parton Parish between 1784 to 1832, so if they married in Parton you will probably never find a marriage..........but most Parish registers for Kirkcudbrightshire are very patchy and do not contain every baptism, marriage or burial that took place.....loads were never recorded in the registers.........


There was an Act of Parliament (which effected the whole of Scotland) effective 1st October 1783 imposing a tax ....... on each birth or baptism, each marriage and each burial that was recorded

Tax was 6d and was not repealed until 1813
The Minister would still marry and baptised people, it just wouldn't be written in the register Marriages and Baptisms took place any day of the week in peoples own homes, or in a nearby big house while the minister was visiting. They rarely took place in Church . The minister than saw his Kirk Session Clerk the following Sunday and told him verbally who he had baptised and married. Sometime during the following week the Session Clerk wrote up the entries in the Registers. So human error plays a big part, baptisms and marriages were forgotten, you actually see many entries with gaps which the Session Clerk obviously intended going back to to fill in the detail but never got round to it....


After the tax was repealed.....At that stage some families approached their Church
with their Family Bible, and asked that the family information then be
recorded in the Church Records
" Unquote

So this could go some way to explaining why there appear to be big gaps in the births of William McGEORGE and Esther ALLCOCK's Parton children.

However, your James - according to the Census, was supposedly born after that tax was repealed - but maybe Parton registers never did quite become as complete as they could be? Which bring back to that 1814 SUbmitted entry (and wondering how that date was sourced), and the 1821 Basptism in SP (that's a gamble, may be him maybe not!)...........
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline AMBLY

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Re: McGeorge
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 18 December 07 02:34 GMT (UK) »
The good news is:
IGI:  William MacGEORGE & Esther ALCOCK
Married 22 Dec 1806 Grey Stoke Cumberland
(Grey Stock Cumberland,  was also known as Grey Stoke)

and then this little lot:

1841: Byker, Newcastle on Tyne, Northumberland
HO107 /  Piece 820 /  Book: 2 /   Folio: 23 /  Pg 39
Address: Byker Hill
Esther MacGEORGE 50, b Scotland (b abt 1791)
Isabella MacGEORGE 20, Dressmaker, b Scotland (b abt 1821)
Maria MacGEORGE 20, b Scotland (b abt 1821)
John MacGEORGE 10, Collier, b Scotland (b abt 1831)
David MacGEORGE 8, Collier, b Scotland (b abt 1833)
RD Covering is Newcastle on Tyne
Ages in 1841 Census are rounded for adults over age of 15.

The "S" for Scotland birthplace for Esther is probably an error......

1851: Village of Briggs Main, Little Benton, Longbenton,  Northumberland
HO107 /  Piece: 2411 /  Folio: 184 /  Pg 17
Address: New Row
Head: Esther McGEORGE 62, widow, b Graystock, Cumberland
Son: John McGEORGE 20, Coal Miner, b Galway, Scotland
Son: David McGEORGE 18, Coal Miner, b Galway, Scotland
The RD covering is : Tynemouth, the Ecclesiastic Parish is Long Benton

1861: Monkwearmouth, Sunderland, Durham
RG9/  Piece: 3781 /  Folio: 112 /  Pg 1
Address 1 Office Row
Head: Esther McGEORGE 73, widow, b Greystock Cumberland
Son: John McGEORGE 26??, marr, Coal Miner, b Partin, Gallowshire
Dau: Mary McGEORGE 21, marr, b Sunderland Durham
The people above them are listed at Southwick Lane - Colliery Office
John's age has a mark thru it but is clearly 20 something, I think 26  - but likley should be 29 or 30?
The daughter - is actually her  daughter in law.
Esther's death is registered in the Dec Qtr 1861

To understand that Partin, Galway, Gallowshire - all refer to Kirkcudbright (and Partin is abviously Parton):
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/KKD/index.html
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/KKD/Parton/index.html

From this, I will take it that: sometime between 1832 and 1841, Esther McGEORGE nee ALCOCK's husband died.

Did he die in (Parton, Kirkcudbright?) Scotland, or in (Northumberland?) England?
Did Esther move to Northumberland/Durham  after her husband died, perhaps following her children who went into the mines? Or did William move there  too, again after 1832 and before 1841?

A possible death is registered:  Sep Qtr 1840 Newcastle - William McGEORGE

Info on Byker:
http://www.genuki.bpears.org.uk/NBL/Newcastle/AllSaints/ChurchRecords.html

Perhaps  anyone has parish or Burial records for Byker  to see if this William McGEORGE who died 1840 was from there, and was an adult male Stonemason

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline AMBLY

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Re: McGeorge
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 18 December 07 02:48 GMT (UK) »
Just  found your James in 1841, I think? (You may already have it..)

Township of Fawdon, Northumberland
 HO107/ Piece 821 /  Book: 11 /   Folio: 5 /  Pg 4
Hundred of Castle   
Address: Fawdon Square
Sarah COOPER 43 - N
James COOPER 23 Coal Miner, -  N
Jane ROBSON 21, F. S. - N
Eliza COOPER 2 - N
James MacGEORGE 18, Coal Miner - N

His Birth should be "S" for Scotland, if he's yours - rather than "N" for born England but not NBU - but a mistake could easily have occured.
I do think he's probably yours.   The area is in Gosforth, Ponteland, Castle West.

But this was my favourite find...
I think this is a brother of your James - (another common thing, a Stonemason father would hand the trade down to at least one son):

1841:  Chapelry of Heworth, Jarrow, Durham
HO107 -  Piece 297 -  Book: 3 -  Folio: 36 -  Pg 19
Robert McGEORGE 25, Mason, b Scotland
Margaret McGEORGE 20, b England (but not in Durham)

1851: Byker Northumberland
HO107; Piece: 2408; Folio: 187; Page: 32
Catterick Buildings
Head: Robert McGEORGE 40, Stone Mason, b Scotland
Wife:  Margaret 32, b Carlisle
Son: William 9, b Durham
Son: John 7, b Northumberland
Dau: Esther 2, b Northumberland

Eldest son Son William  -  Birth reg: probably : Dec Qtr 1841 Gateshead
Dau: Esther: Birth reg: probably : Sep Qtr 1848 New Tyne

The gap between William & Esther suggests a death (or absence elsewhere) of a child, possibly of a girl who would have been named after Margaret's mother. If so, that would make this Esther the 2nd daughter and then it's back on track for a naming pattern....

This Esther was baptised 1849, in  same Church as your James' daughter of same name.

Robert is in:
1861 Kenton NBU  (Ponteland, Castle Ward) - RG9 /  Piece: 3853 /  Folio: 82 /  Pg21
1871 Briggs Main, Longbenton NBU RG10 /  Piece: 5125 /  Folio: 38 /  Pg9
1881  Briggs Main, Longbenton NBU - RG11 /  Piece: 5086 /  Folio: 4 /  pg1
1891: Walker, Longbenton - RG12 /  Piece: 4231 /  Folio 79 /  Pg 40
Each time place of birth just given as Scotland.

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline geordiepaul2001

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Re: McGeorge
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 18 December 07 10:28 GMT (UK) »
Thank you very much for all the replies.

It may be possible that the word under the Fathers name is 'dec', possibly an abbreviation of deceased.
Not 100% sure whether its helpful.

Paul
Mawson - Northumberland, North Yorkshire, Durham

McGeorge - Kirkcudbrightshire, Northumberland

Offline AMBLY

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Re: McGeorge
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 18 December 07 12:52 GMT (UK) »
Hi Paul

Ah Lovely - a number of markers on the marriage cert (it all helps ;D)

1) He was a minor - and we would expect that he was under the age of 21, abt 18 perhaps)
2) His father was deceased (you right, the abbreviation is "dec'd", commonly used).
3) His address, Byker Hill, is the same one (dare we now say, his likely mother?) Esther Mc GEORGE is at in 1841.

Shame the other witness is not a McGEORGE.....
Wonder who Jos (Joseph PEARSON is...........? Unfortunately a significant number of them in 1841 and 1851 Northumberland alone,  who he could be!

All in all, I would be feeling pretty confident of the connections, that your James is the son of William and Esther.

Perhaps you could, if you wanted some extra confirmation -  get the marriage cert for Robert McGEORGE too, to see who he names as his father when he married. (not that I can find the marriage registration ???

Another marriage of interest would be:
Isabella McGEORGE, the daughter of Esther and William, who married - it appears - in 1843 to a Robert MARK.

Also availablel to look into: Marriages  - Maria McGEORGE 1845, John McGEORGE 1853, David McGEORGE 1855

Isabella and her husband are on the 1851 Census in the Village of Fullwell, NBU:-
HO107 /  Piece 2398 / Folio: 413 /  Pg 5
Robert MARK 36, Cordwainer, b Brampton CUM
Wife: Isabella 35, b Scotland
Dau: Catherine 6, b Durham
Son: Joseph 4, b Bolton DUR
Dau: Esther 2, b Bolton DUR
Dau: Maria Ann 2 months, b Bolton DUR
Niece: Jane MARK 15,  b Bolton DUR

The 'usual' Scottish naming pattern is not apparent in this household - perhaps because Robert had the say so, or because they were simply deviating from it - however the daughter's names  Esther and Maria Ann are helpful

Maybe a topic on the NBU boards to ask for help locating any Byker burial records 1833 to 1841 of a William McGEORGE  - possibly in late-ish 1840.

Cheers  :D
AMBLY


Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline geordiepaul2001

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Re: McGeorge
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 29 December 07 10:42 GMT (UK) »
Hello again folks,

I ordered the certificate that I believe to be William McGeorge (James Son), the trouble is that although the age matches, the Wifes first name matches and the county matches - the certificate is so unreadable that I can't be certain that the Father is called James.
Mawson - Northumberland, North Yorkshire, Durham

McGeorge - Kirkcudbrightshire, Northumberland

Offline AMBLY

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Re: McGeorge
« Reply #8 on: Monday 31 December 07 00:30 GMT (UK) »
Hi Paul

Happy Christmas!  ;D

I think the 1872 marriage certificate you have is of William McGEORGE son of Robert McGEORGE - the same Robert as above.

The father's name on that 1872 Cert is certainley not James - but I am fairly certain it says "Robert". And he (Robert) is definitely stated to be a Mason.

William's occupation on the cert looks like Ships Caulker.  (This may make sense too,  as I think in one Census for Robert he is a Stone Mason at a Shipyard)
I also think it's possible William's age on that cert is 29, not 27 - ie: that the top of the 9 is very faint, making it look like a 7??

In the 1851 and 1861 Census for Robert the stonemason - his son William is aged 9 and and 19, respectively.
On the the 1871 though, he is 27 as follows:

Cross Row, Briggs Main, Little Benton
Head: Robert McGEORGE 60, Stone Mason, b Scotland
Wife: Margaret 57, b Carlisle,  Cumberland
Son: William 27, unm, Caulker Iron --? Yar? (yard?), b Heworth, Durham
Son: Robert 18, unm, Labourer Iron --? Yar? (yard?), b Low Felling, Durham
Dau: Margaret 15, unm, b Newcastle on Tyne
Dau: Elizabeth 11, b Gosforth Northumberland

The 1881 Census for William and Jane - I think  the same couple from that marriage certificate:
RG11/ Piece 5071/ Folio: 99/ Pg 72 - Wallsend
Has William as age 38 and his occupation as Iron Ship Caulker.
Wife Jane is 28 and amongst their children is eldest Robert age 8 and third child (and 2nd daughter), Margaret age 4. 

You bought the certificate in the hopes William was the son of your James the miner? (James, I believe being the brother of Robert the Stonemason - and the pair of them being sons of William the Stone mason and Esther Allcock).............

In short, it looks to me if  the certificate you have bought is the for Willam (son of Robert)  who is a first cousin of William (son of James).
Both William's being of similar ages, both married a woman named Jane. But with different occupations........

The son of James being a Coal Miner like his father. This William's wife Jane was a similar age to him and born Cramlington

The son of Robert being a worker in a Shipyard as a Caulker, somewhat similar to his father who was a Mason in a Shipyard.  This William's wife Jane was about 8 to 10 years younger than him and born Durham (one says in Trimdon).

In 1861, James McGEORGE is in Hetton le Hole, with his wife Mary (nee SETERY)  and children. Son William there is age 18, b. Long Benton and his occupation is Coal Miner.
By 1871, this son William is not at home - he is married to a Jane.....

He is the one is Boldon Colliery in 1901 age 56. His daughter Margaret married MAWSON (another of your posts is about the MAWSON family?).
He and his wife & children are  in Boldon Colliery in 1891, in Seghill in 1881, and in 1871 are in Seaton Delavel with an 11 month old daughter named Hannah. His wife Jane is always stated as born in Cramlington in the Census.

Not sure what Census you already have, so I haven't posted full details (but if you need any just ask!).

Have you the birth certificate of any of your Willam and Jane's  children to establish this Jane's maiden name? There is a marriage:

Sep Qtr 1864 - Tynemouth -
WIlliam MacGEORGE and  married either Jane CRAWFORD or Jane ARMSTRONG
(one of the 2 brides named Jane married William, the other married Thomas BUCKHAM)

1864 seems a bit early being as there is only the 11month old Hannah with them in 1871 - but perhaps there were earlier children born between 1864 and 1870 who died or who are not at home in the 1871.

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)