Newbie looking for help on Christies of Arboath

[Isles]

I expect you have the list of George Christie's listed in the Find My Past index but if not:-

George Christie     25     1895    London to New Zealand
     "            "         20     1906   Liverpool to Port Chalmers
     "            "          -       1909   London to Wellington
     "            "          -        1909  Liverpool to Wellington
     "            "          27     1926  Liverpool to Auckland

[nzmike]

Thanks - the list I have from various FindMyPast searches is like this:

CHRISTIE     G              M        1910     London     New Zealand     Wellington     
CHRISTIE    Geo     25    M      1895    London    New Zealand    New Zealand    
CHRISTIE    Geo     20    M    1906    Liverpool    New Zealand    Port Chalmers    
CHRISTIE    Geo           M     1909    Liverpool    New Zealand    Wellington    
CHRISTIE    Geo           M     1909    London    New Zealand    Wellington    
CHRISTIE    Geo     27    M    1926    Liverpool    New Zealand    Auckland    

The ones I need to look at (haven't yet but will later) is the one for 1910 and the two for 1909.  The problem is that even so it could have been any one of the three - what I'm finding difficult is to link any one of them with the George Christie from Arbroath.   

[nzmike]

Ok, I've had a chance to digest the info given by ev and Steve....

First, ev, thanks for the 1881 & 1891 census info.... I agree everything fits so it really has to be them in both cases.  I didn't previously know about John F Christie or Florence so they are totally new people in my family tree.  Did you got this info from Ancestry.co.uk? 

Also ev, when you say "The 1861 census is something else" what do you mean?  I think it looks possible to be the same family as James (the son) is 2 years of age which would mean he could have been born in 1858 and not yet turned 3 when the census was done.  Also, from the marriage certificate of James Christie and Barbara Finlayson in 1878, it shows his mother's maiden name to indeed be "Fettes" so I think it is most likely to be the same family.  If you don't think it's the same family what makes you think that?  (i.e: what have I missed?!)

Sorry if I confused you re Barbara Christie... there are so many James Christie's it's hard to explain it all clearly.  Anyway, there was only one Barbara (nee Finlayson - note, no 'd' in the name, despite the census adding one) who was married to James, my great grandfather (and yes, she died in 1932 in Arbroath).  From the same marriage certificate I can confirm that Barbara's parents were John Finlayson and Mary Mitchell.

If you look at the link I posted to my g.g.f James Christie's birth cert in my first post you will see his mother is listed as Matilda Mahon and the father is also James Christie (therefore my great great grandfather).  It is this man I suspected was in fact already married (to Mary Fettes it would now seem) with children and obviously had a fling with our Miss Mahon who most likely worked at the same mill. 

So I guess now I can do a search on ScotlandsPeople or the IGI etc for a James Christie born around 1817... am assuming it was in Arbroath since but naturally he could have come from anywhere.

Thanks also for the 1891 census info... I am guessing the person doing the census simply assumed the Finlaysons name had a 'd' in it - interesting to note that the two Christie grandsons lived with them.... Very interesting that neither James, Brabara or George Christie are in it. I can't help wondering if they went out to NZ or somewhere else to build a new life leaving the two youngest sons with their grandparents until they could afford to send for them. Although given they both died in Arbroath I guess that seems unlikely... perhaps they were just so poor they needed help to clothe, house and feed the 2 younger sons James and John.  Or perhaps Barbara was ill or just not a good mother, hence my g.g.f divorcing her around 1909.

All questions which I doubt I'll ever get a definitive answer to.

Another Q - for people like this who were very obviously working class and probably very poor would they have been likely to have had headstones when they died?  If so, does anyone know any way of finding where they might be buried?  (I guess I'd need to write to Angus Council for that info as I've not found it online anywhere.)

Thanks also for the two websites - I had previosuly stumbled across them and http://www.arbroathtimeline.moonfruit.com/ is very, very useful (shame about the annoying music but you can't have everything!).  The Angus council site I will keep my eye on as it appears so far not much is available online.... later this year there will be more according to them.

The problem with doing this is i could ask a million questions... but I'd be here night and end up doing a Tolstoy!

Many thanks again for the help.... it's allowed me to make a lot of headway in just one day!

Mike

[ev]

hi mike

it was steve who said "the 1861 census was something else"

james and barbara marriage cert lists mary fettes as his mother
there is a son born to james christie and mary fettes on the IGI
13th december 1857 arbroath angus
although james is listed as 2 on the census and he should be 3
what makes you think that this isn't your james ?
there is only one death listed on scotlandspeople between 1857 and 1861 for a james christie - born 1858 died 1858 arbroath angus
so if it's not james and mary's son then that would lead me to think that
this james is your man , unless i'm missing something 

i subscribe to ancestry for census returns to try and pin people down
then buy credits on scotlandspeople to obtain certificates

i don't think the salvation army would keep records
people using their services could give a false name and if homeless
could be anybody
had a look at the national archives of scotland for a divorce but nothing
on line , but there are divorces listed so may be they could help

a james christie married mary fettes 14th november 1846 st. vigeans
(arbroath) angus

ev

[Piglet01]

Apologies for the confusion - by 'something else' on the 1661 census - I meant the status of the handwriting.  :O)  Steve

[nzmike]

ev,  sorry about the mis-quote... it was pretty late when I wrote it.   (But I do agree with you Steve, the handwriting is almost illegible!)

I think I must have confused you again with my War & Peace post.... I was actually agreeing with you that it must be the James Christie, married to Mary Fettes, who is my great great grandfather.  And now I know that for sure as I can trace back  the whole lineage via BD&M certificates from him down to myself.  (Now I have try to find his marriage and birth certs and start the search for another generation back - which will no doubt involve more fun and games with mulitple James Christie's!)

So I guess the other James Christie who had a son of the same name with Matilda Mahon was the wrong one - but the dates and other stuff seemed correct so I assumed it was him.  (Now I can admit I'm quietly relived my great grandfather wasn't illegitimate after all!)

It is odd that the son James Christie is listed as being 2 as he certainly would have been 3 in 1861... perhaps  his father had had one dram too many when the census-taker came to the door that night or he mis-heard the age - sadly, we'll never know.

Thanks again  for the help - it helps having another 2 or 3 pairs of eyes looking at this, especially given how confusing the whole James Christie situation is and between you, you've helped me work through a total dead end I had with my g.g.f.

Anyone have any opinions re my questions about these sort of working class, probably very poor, people having headstones and/or  how to find where they might be buried?

Cheers,

Mike

[Carrie-Boyd]

Hi hope I will be able to be of help.  Barbara Finlayson is on my family tree as are the Fettes family.  I actually have family in Australia who are in the salvation army so I'll see what I can do about getting information from them.  I'll check with our Finlayson records to see if I can get some more information about Barbara for you.  You can get access to burial records for Arbroath unfortunately through a paying website that gives all burials with plots and it includes still births.  You are assumming he divorced her perhaps it was desertion and as she went to the salvation army I would say drink could be the cause.  I have a Barbara who inherited a lot of money when her brother  and sister-in-law died and the will stipulates the money was for her and her children not the husband.

[nzmike]

Hi Carrie,

I hope you are are still around on RootsChat!  I am not sure why I missed your reply back in 2012 but I was just looking back through some old posts on the site and saw it.

I am very interested in the Barbara you have in your tree that inherited money and stipulated in her will that no money went to her husband - do you have any more info on her you can share with me?  Specifically, birth/marriage/death dates (or details) and whether she was married to James Christie.  Also, if it is the same person is there any chance I could get a copy at the will (assuming you have it in an electronic form)?

The fact Barbara ended up in a Sallies home is still one of the mysteries of my family I haven't cleared up but perhaps you were right that her husband was abusive or inadequate due to alcohol... very sad if it's true but I know that side of my family were pretty hard working class people.  My mother told me that my father and his father never talked about their family so one would have to assume there were some secrets and/or some shame there.

And just out of interest, since we're related very distantly, where do you fit into the Fettes/Finlayson family? 

Cheers,

Mike

[Forfarian]

Just a little word of caution. Don't read more into this than the essentials.

First, as I read Carrie's post, it wasn't Barbara's will that stipulated that the money was for her and not for her husband's use. It was the will of her brother and sister-in-law.

Under Scots Law a surviving spouse is entitled to one-third of the deceased spouse's moveable estate, so Barbara could not have excluded her husband even if she had wanted to.

Secondly, it is absolutely standard practice for someone making a will leaving money to a female to exclude her husband's jus mariti, in other words to specify that the legacy is for her use only, not his.

So unless you have definite evidence to suggest that Barbara's husband was unsatisfactory, you cannot deduce this from what Carrie said about her brother's will. If he divorced her, it might even be the other way round.

You should be able to get full details of the divorce proceedings from the National Records of Scotland www.nas.gov.uk