Author Topic: Woodlock Smith  (Read 25982 times)

Offline Britgal

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #36 on: Saturday 23 February 13 21:54 GMT (UK) »
Just an update regarding my hope to find Woodlock and his brother Barthy's gravestone in Leytonstone churchyard ... I'd planned to visit the churchyard, so got in touch with the local history group for Leytonstone to find out in advance if the evangelist Romany community that used to live there had left any 'footprints', as it were, that the local historians were aware of. They broke it to me that the churchyard received a direct hit from WW2 bombing - in fact it was the very first bomb that fell on Leytonstone in the 2nd World War. The bomb left a crater that is still visible and I'm told that very few stones survived, but they'd let me know sometime if the Smith brothers’ one(s) did (I never heard back, so I'm assuming that's a negative). I see from the internet that the churchyard is now more like a small, leafy, park with info boards dotted around not only concerning the history of local WW2 bombing, but detailing the wildlife found therein. I think the brothers with their countryside upbringing would have approved.

Offline tiggi

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #37 on: Sunday 24 February 13 10:17 GMT (UK) »
birth registry  Owen Smith 1866 Jan/Feb/Mar Forehoe Norfolk


1901  Wokingham Berkshire there is a Owen Smith b 1866
( says Berkshire but maybe because living there?)
with mix of Smiths & Gregory might be worth looking into all hawkers in caravans
TENETT BUCKLAND & PLATO BUCKLAND ( MY LINEAGE)
  Buckland Smith James Stanley Lovell Loveridge Lee Cooper Penfold/Pinfold Orchard Boswell Broadway Wells
 
AREAS OF INTEREST CORNWALL DEVON

USA   Worton Stanley Joles Cooper  Jeffrey Small
 all English lines of Roms who are found in America

UK Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline king otg

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #38 on: Saturday 04 May 13 11:23 BST (UK) »
A Woodlock SMITH married Counci Lettie LOVERIDGE on 13 July 1903 at Bedford St Paul

Woodlock’s father is given as Hemlock SMITH while Councie Lettie’s father is not named. She was baptised three days before the wedding at the same church. Her mother was Elizabeth but her father was not named. Councie’s dob was given as 17 June 1872. She died September Quarter 1955.

Both Woodlock and Hemlock also went by the other’s name. The father, Hemlock, was called Woodlock (56) in 1891 Kneesworth CAM [1103/97/12] but his baptism and death (March Quarter 1897, age 65) are registered under Hemlock.

The son, Woodlock, appears as Woodlock in 1891BDF and 1901BDF but his birth (June Quarter 1871) and death (December Quarter 1957) were registered under Hemlock.

Tracing Hemlock snr back a couple of generations shows that his family lived in the same region as, and had similar forenames to, the family of Woodlock, Cornelius, Barthy etc.

TL

Offline Britgal

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #39 on: Sunday 24 August 14 02:53 BST (UK) »
Small breakthrough in details concerning Woodlock's offspring ... found a baptism listed on Family Search under film no. 994018 for a Lamarline Smith, 18 Feb 1872 at the Primitive Methodist Church in Cambridge (I believe this to be the one that was in Fitzroy Street, demolished around 1877). Parent - i.e. singular - is shown as Woodlock Smith of Cambridge (this makes sense, as Woodlock's wife wasn't a church-goer).  Searching under the same film number reveals that three of Lamarline's cousins (children of my ggg-grandfather Bartholomew), Elias, Elijah and Mary, were also baptised at the same location in the early 1870s.

Sadly, I can find no further details concerning a Lamarline Smith.  No birth, marriage or death; no census mention  ???


Offline essexpoet

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #40 on: Thursday 06 August 15 12:00 BST (UK) »
I have been reading these posts with interest.

Could someone with knowledge of Woodlock's family please have a look at the following -

1891 census Celia Pilgrim West Ham Essex - the census looks very suspect as apart from Horace I do not think (or at least cannot trace) any of the others as Pilgrims - the forenames however look to be similar to some of the Smiths.

Freereg Grace Pilgrim 1893 Barking Essex

1901 census Grace Pilgrim 1893 Bexley Kent

1911 census Celia Smith Barking (born 1857)

There seems to be no official marriage between Horace and Celia

Any comments would be appreciated

I can list if required but looking at the actual entries I believe is more helpful

Mike
Halstead ,The Hedinghams,The Maplesteads,The Belchamps,Gosfield,Gestingthorpe,Stisted,Toppesfield

Offline Britgal

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #41 on: Thursday 21 February 19 01:29 GMT (UK) »
Thanks to Mike for his list of possible sightings for Woodlock's daughter, Celia Smith - I'm in general agreement with what's he's discovered, particularly that Horace Pilgrim and Celia most likely weren't married.  The flagging up of 1911 census was the most helpful, as it highlighted Celia's return to her maiden name.  Off the back of this I found her in the 1901 census (when 2 of her young daughters were living down in Bexley in another and their waggon) - again using the surname Smith, a 45 year old "widow" who is living in Dartford Union Workhouse and whose occupation is Field Work.  POB Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk (Ancestry mistranscribed as Burg St Edmunds).

Regarding my previous post of another of Woodlock's daughters, "Lamarline" Smith ... I found a Death Index match for her, only with a different (probably better) approximation of her forename: JQ 1872: Smith  Lemertany  0  W. Ham  4a 15.

Death Cert showed Lemertany died aged 2 months from Bronchitis, uncertified. Place of death: The Flats, Little Ilford*, as was the Residence of Informant, present at the death, Justinia Smith, who 'made her mark' on 3rd April 1872.  Father shown as Woodlock Smith, Chair Caner.

*According to a lengthy article found on British History Online, "Little Ilford" is now approximately where Manor Park, London is located.  "The Flats" were / are the public open space of Wanstead Flats, adjacent to Epping Forest.



Offline 3lle00

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #42 on: Monday 20 September 21 16:11 BST (UK) »
Hi, I've been reading through this thread and wondered if anyone could shed some light on where my family line might fit into this.

I am related to the Smiths, on two accounts. I have cousins that married each other I believe and know they were of gypsy decent.

Starting with my Great Grandfather Arthur Percy Wayland whose parents were Phoebe Ann Cockley and Joseph Wayland who married Betsy Smith born 1886. Betsy Smiths parents were Jane Smith and James Smith (from research I believe they were 1st/2nd cousins).

1. Jane Smith b. 1862 in Biggleswade, Bedfordshire whose parents were Christopher Smith b. 1829 and Elizabeth Albone b.1828 marrying in St.Marks Shoreditch in 1878. Attached the 1871 census (quality may be bad) which I believe may link her siblings to other people on this page, is it the same? Unfortunately I'm stuck past Christopher Smith I have his parents listed as Jame Smith and Elizabeth O'Dell but can't find enough hard evidence in the census (which are mostly missing). Does anyone have more information on them?

2. James smith b. c. 1858 in Brentwood area, Essex. I have parents listed as Frederick Smith and Elizabeth Law. I think Frederick Smith may have been a relative of the James Smith who married Elizabeth O'Dell but haven't it copied it over to my hard copy yet as I am unsure. What's interesting is that Elizabeth Law married Frederick Smith in 1872 after they had their children, Frederick's father is down as James Smith. however again due to missing census records can not be certain as to where Elizabeth Law and Frederick were born (though other people on ancestry have).

I hope that all makes sense so far.

What is also interesting is that the second husband of my 2nd Great Grandmother 'Phoebe Anne Cockley' Harry Lazell whose father I believe was Thomas Lazel and Catherine (Possibly). I haven't done much research into this however. They had one child named Maud, who married Leonard Finch in South End on Essex, in 1960 and did not have children and lived at the cottage at Myhill in Essex. Did these Lazell's have a link to the Smiths through things mentioned on this page too?

Many Thanks in advanced.

Offline Britgal

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #43 on: Monday 20 September 21 18:51 BST (UK) »
Hi - if you're right that your great great grandparent is Jane Smith, daughter of Christopher "Gritty" Smith & Elizabeth Albone, then that makes us 5th cousins (me being descended from Christopher's brother, Bartholomew).  Have you done the Ancestry DNA test?  I have, so if your test is there too we should hopefully be able to find a concrete link.

So, Christopher and Barthy's parents were James Smith and Elizabeth Odell (not O'Dell).  That's going back some time, in Romany terms, so details are sketchy and hard to come by.  I've made copious notes over the years in the hope that one day they'll all make sense ( ;D) I started a long time ago and am no academic with my source-quoting (though I've made valiant attempts) ... so here is the first of two tangled balls of wool for you to pick through.  Due to the 5,500 character limit (my total for these two people came to over 16,000) I'll chop up into 6 "pages" ...

PAGE 1 OF 6

JAMES SMITH
Amanda Antoniou's tree describes James as being "one of the Cambridge Smiths".  Her data also has James' DOB as 30 Sep 1808 (as does the tree of another researcher, Barry Gould).

The place of birth / baptism: "Piddington, Cambs" seemed to be incorrect.  The only Piddingtons in the UK are in Oxfordshire, Bucks and Northants (source: multimap.com). However, a clue presented itself in the form of the baptism of daughter Alice (13 Jan 1839, St Andrew's, Soham, Cambs), where her parents were described as "James & Elizabeth of Acleton Northamptonshire" ... on searching Googlemaps for "Acleton" I discovered it was in fact Hackleton with a dropped 'H' ... and by chance I noticed the village right next door: Piddington ... a part of the civil parish of Hackleton.

The only result in a targeted search for a baptism in the IGI for a James Smith son of a Thomas Smith and a Sarah in 1808 took place 08 AUG 1808 in Ullingswick, Hereford.  Doing a targeted search for the 1800 option is 07 DEC 1800 in Tur Langton, Leicester.  Either or neither could be right, but I have not great hopes for either.  The same search spread between 1800 and 1810 (a total of 25 possibilities) does not bring up any Piddington placenames - it could be a red herring, as can often be the case with Romany claims for POBs, or - as is often the case - the travelling family will save any baptism until a scheduled meet-up with family, or for when they are passing a 'traveller-friendly' church with which they've had good previous experience or have received a recommendation about it from another traveller.

Either James' father had at least two wives, or James was the very youngest of a long series of children.  Grandson Rodney Smith recalled in his autobiography that his "grandfather and grandmother were both seventy [when they died or when they were converted? I am assuming the latter], and lived five years after their conversion." and "Grandfather’s brother was camping with him, and he, too, sought and found the Saviour. He was ninety-nine years of age, and lived two years after this, dying a triumphant Christian death."

Offline Britgal

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #44 on: Monday 20 September 21 18:54 BST (UK) »
PAGE 2 OF 6

So, if I'm correct in thinking that the brothers were 70 and 99 concurrently, then word of mouth says there was around an impressive 29 year span of siblings going on here!

James and Elizabeth Odell's marriage date of 04 Sep 1824 Longstanton, Cambridge has been confirmed by kind check of St Michael's church parish register, Longstanton, performed by the Cambridge Records Office.  Both parties described as "of this parish", but this wouldn't have been unusual if the couple had been living there even temporarily (they weren't 'of' any other parish, after all!). Marriage witnessed by William Webb and Sarah Harris.

James' occupation was Basket Maker and Chair Caner.  He was also said to be a heavy drinker.  Going to public houses was often necessary for travelling Romany men to find work, and engagements would usually be sealed with a drink.  Also, Romany men often found employment at fairs and other places of celebration where liquor was drunk, so the temptation to indulge in hearty drinking was persistent (source: Gypsy from the Forest by David Lazell).

From 'The Life Story of Gipsy Cornelius Smith':

"My father and mother, James and Elizabeth Smith, were married at Longstanton, Cambridgeshire, their occupation being chair caners and basket makers.  It was their custom to travel from place to place; thus rambling to fairs, feasts, and races ... My father was a drunkard, and when he drank and smoked I tried to imitate him, and eventually succeeded ... One night, my father, coming home the worse for drink, sitting on the front of his van, fell off, and both wheels passed over his body.  He was brought home, and we thought he would die ... My father was so very ill that he wished my mother to take a cottage in Cambridge that he might go to the hospital.  She did so, and he was somewhat restored, but through this accident was a sufferer for life."

Some of the children researcher Gloria Harmsworth has listed for James and Elizabeth predate the 1824 marriage.  This could simply mean that the couple had previously been 'unofficially' married according to Romany tradition prior to the legal marriage.  More worryingly, however, is that James' own age (if considering the 1808 option) does not fit in very believably with some of the children he's meant to have fathered.  It helps that wife Elizabeth appears to be his senior by about 11 years (unconfirmed), but still!

Also, another facet of James' life would appear to be that he 'got around a bit' ... a Smith researcher (Vince Smith) on Roots Chat wrote: "I know that Rodney's Grandad was a James Smith and that he had a multitude of children from more than one woman."