Author Topic: Woodlock Smith  (Read 22726 times)

Offline Britgal

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #45 on: Monday 20 September 21 18:55 BST (UK) »
PAGE 3 OF 6

Gloria's children's list starts with an Amy, b. 1817, Suffolk (i.e. when James was 9 years old, so pretty unlikely!), and carries on 3 years later with a Frederick**, b. 1820, Huntingdonshire - a Chair Mender who married an Elizabeth Law in Loughton in 1872 (i.e. when he was 52 ... and who then went on to have 8 children!).  Third on the list is an unknown female who was born in Cambs in 1825 and died in the same county in 1865. Nameless tree members aren't v. useful - so I will omit this*.

*Amanda Antoniou's tree has Amy's details as having been born in >>1827<< so I have now included her in the tree.

I have started the children's list in this tree from Ezekiel - despite there being very little data for him.

**NB  Online genealogy forum poster An65, states that James had a FIRST wife by the name Mary and that their child was Frederick, baptised 08 Mar 1818 in Bletsoe, Bedfordshire (when James was 10?!) and who married an Elizabeth Law in 1872 at Loughton Essex. 

Unfortunately, An65 then goes on to reel off a list of James and 2nd wife Elizabeth Odell's ELEVEN children (versus Gloria's post-marriage part of the her list of SEVEN), starting with a pre-marriage dated child by the name of Phoebe, who was baptised 23.11.1817 Chipping Warden, Northamptonshire and who went on to marry a Christopher Smith.

All of which conflicting information must put James' YOB into very serious question.  Perhaps some confusion has arisen over James' baptism?  An65 firmly states that James' baptism took place 30 Aug 1808 (i.e. one month BEFORE his birth as claimed by others).  Even if this is a correct entry/match for James and not a typo, it doesn't necessarily rule out his having been BORN a lot earlier.

The list of 11 children provided online by An65 came, she states, from "T. Lee's excellent work Lee Family Tree Vol 2".  This is a copy & paste of her post more or less as seen, other than that I have sorted it into chronological order (the 'c.' is, I expect, 'christened'):

Phoebe c.23.11.1817 Chipping Warden Nthants m.Christopher Smith
Amelia c.21.11.1824 Wickhambrook Sfk
Amy c.07.01.1827 Honington Sfk (born 29.12.1826 Akleton Nthants)
Christopher c.22.03.1829 Digswell Hrts m1 Elizabeth Albone 16.07.1849 Biggleswade and 2.Rhoda Brinkley.
Cornelius c.15.05.1831 Burwell Cam (born 08.05.1831) m.Mary "Polly" Welch.
Thomas b.cir 1832 Bur 03.12.1854 Barkingside Ex
Woodlock c.21.07.1833 Tempsford Bdf m.Justinia Buckley (she later m. Haley Harris after Woodlock's death).
Julia b.cir 1834 married Tom Lee s/o Amos
Bartholomew "Barthy" c.07.02.1836 Bluntisham Hunts married Susan Lee.
Alice b.cir 1839 Ware Hrts c.25.07.1841 Orwell Cam married 1 Josiah Buckley 2 Randal Lee 3 Carnation Buckley.
Edward

Offline Britgal

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #46 on: Monday 20 September 21 18:58 BST (UK) »
PAGE 4 OF 6

In the biography of James' great-grandson George Bramwell Evens (aka "Romany of the BBC"), written by his wife Eunice Evens nee Thomas (see her Notes), the sons of James are mentioned as follows:

"Cornelius was one of five brothers, the others [i.e. excepting Bartholomew and Woodlock who'd been discussed previously] being known as Christopher and "Pizzler" Jimmy [the mind boggles!].  All of them were badly in need of "conversion," for they were known to be exceptionally lawless; deer-stealing in Epping Forest was one of the least of their crimes."

As can be seen, when compared side by side a lot of the above info differs vastly from the data in the list so far entered into this tree for James and Elizabeth's children.  A lot more research needs to be done here ... it just depends on reliable records surviving that can be properly attributed to *this* family (wishful thinking?).

Source for James' date & place of death [07 Apr 1875, Loughton, Essex]  un-noted.  If correct, the Death Indexes have the following promising match: JQ 1875, aged 75, Epping, 4a, 61, which would roll back James' YOB by eight years and solve a lot of the timeline difficulties. 

Certificate with above index reference purchased, but there is nothing concrete that indicates any Gypsy connection.  It must be the same certificate to which the previously-mentioned date refers, but I'm just not 100% convinced it's a match, because there's nothing 'obvious' about the certificate.  There are, however, small clues that MIGHT add up to it belonging to James. There's no full address of death, which occurred on 7th April 1875, just that it was in Loughton (registration district Epping) ... and this location does tally with that of wife Elizabeth's when she died in 1873 (also with the address solely as "Loughton"). Maybe the lack of an address indicates both were living in a wagon? Age is 75, but occupation is Agricultural Labourer - an occupation done by the majority of British non-travelling people at that time, but also something that Romany peoples did, too, on a seasonal basis. He died of bronchitis - as had his wife - and the informant present at the death was a Bathsheba Smith - an 'odd' enough forename to be a Romany, but a name not so far found elsewhere in the Smith research - whose 'address' is also just noted as Loughton. This JQ 1875 cert is - at best - inconclusive, but I've left it as part of James's 'vital statistics' until something better crops up.  The key to the certificate might lie in being able to find out more about Bathsheba Smith.

I later bought an alternative possibility: SQ 1876, Age 73, Epping RD, 4a 80, however this seems even less likely.  James Smith, Labourer, 73 years old, died 5th September 1876 in Bury Lane, Epping, Essex.  Cause of death: Diseased Heart, Dropsy.  Informant: Elizabeth Tarling, daughter, present at the death, of Bury Lane, Epping, Essex.  Currently I have no information that suggests James had a daughter named Elizabeth, much less one with the surname Tarling.  Family Search shows that an Elizabeth Smith, dau. of James Smith, married a Charles Tarling, s. of James Tarling, in Epping in 1858 ... but this still isn't much help.  I include the info to rule it out, more than anything.

Offline Britgal

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #47 on: Monday 20 September 21 18:59 BST (UK) »
PAGE 5 OF 6

ELIZABETH ODELL
Researcher Roy Taylor via his Pedigree Resource File inclusion on Family Search (see notes for Thomas Smith) gives Elizabeth's parents as Elijah ODELL and Jane SMITH and the date & place of baptism as 16 AUG 1795, Campton, Bedfordshire.  This parentage is echoed in the Genes Reunited tree of Barry Gould, who gives Elijah and Jane's years of birth as 1772 and 1774 respectively (no source quoted - probably estimated).

An online genealogy forum poster (An65) is in disagreement and states that Elizabeth's parents were William ODELL & Sarah THOMPSON.  She agrees with Roy and Barry's baptism date, however (?!).

A look at the IGI lists shows that an Elizabeth Odell was baptised to a William Odell and a Sarah Thompson on 16 AUG 1795  Shefford, Bedford ... and not long after another Elizabeth Odell was baptised to a Thomas Odell and Sarah on 19 MAR 1797 Cranfield, Bedford (10 miles East of Shefford).

It's my belief that, unless someone goes and actually sets eyes on these parish records (or trustworthy copies of them) and can see the parents having had the textual finger pointed at them as "Strangers" or "Travellers", (or can provide a firm reason for quoting the parents/place they quote) then Elizabeth's true background is all just guesswork.

Very interestingly, the Odell name - in connection with a Smith and the county of Bedfordshire - crops up in a marriage listed in The A to Z of Gipsy Genealogies by Terence Lee:

"BDF Maulden m24/12/1821 Sarah (SMITH), sig = James ODELL, X, chm.swp, bsotp". 

Was James Odell a brother of Elizabeth's perhaps?  And for that matter, was Sarah Smith connected to Elizabeth's husband James' Smith family (maybe not, if she signed her name)?  It's also interesting to note that just 5 days prior to Elizabeth Odell and James Smith's marriage on 04 Sep 1824, another Smith/Odell coupling took place: 

"CAM Longstanton St Michael m30/8/1824 Jane (SMITH), X = Elijah ODELL, X, bsotp [Elijah was born RAINBOW TL]"

A look at the PR TX for the above shows the witnesses were William Neal and Sarah Worley (these appear to be locals, as a much later entry in 1847 shows the marriage of a Joseph Neal, son of Wm. Neal, Parish Clerk, and an Ann Worley).  On the self-same day as James and Elizabeth's wedding (04 Sep 1824), a Thomas Webb and Mary Robertson were married, with witnesses being William and Mary HARRIS (James and Elizabeth's witnesses were William WEBB and Mary HARRIS.  It all sounds as if a number of travellers were in Longstanton around this time (working on the harvest, I should imagine).


Offline Britgal

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #48 on: Monday 20 September 21 19:00 BST (UK) »
PAGE 6 OF 6

Also intriguing is that on 10 Aug 1823 an "Elizabeth Odle", dau of James & Ann of Maulden, Beds, Lab, was baptised at Longstanton St Michael, born 05 Aug 1823 (source: PR TX).

On 14 Oct 1838 in Rampton, Cambrideshire, a couple named James and Ann Odell (James being described as a Chair Maker), baptised their two children: Maria, 14 days old and John, "near 3 years old". Was this the same James and Ann? These were the only Odell entries in the Rampton baptisms between 1599 and 1950, so it's unlikely the pair were locals.

An65 states that Elizabeth had a daughter named Ann before she married James, baptised c.07.05.1820 Campton, Bedfordshire.

David Lazell, in his book about Elizabeth's grandson Rodney, quotes from Elizabeth's son Cornelius' book "The Life Story of Cornelius Smith":

"... Cornelius recalled that although she was 'only a gipsy', and in that sense would probably be thought ignorant of spiritual matters by most 'gorgios' (non Gypsies), she would never permit her sons to go to bed without saying the Lord's Prayer."  Hmm - were the DAUGHTERS excused prayers, I wonder?

Regarding whether the Odells really were Romany people or not, Terence Lee states in his A-Z of Gipsy Genealogies: "In Bedfordshire the surnames ALBONE and ODELL were once quite common and it is unsurprising to note that a few of them married gipsies. But it would be wrong to assume that gipsylike ALBONEs and ODELLs were more closely related to each other through their own name than to each other through their gipsy marriages."

Date & place of death [01 Nov 1873, Loughton] from Death Cert. Elizabeth is described on the certificate as Elizabeth Smith, 76 years, wife of James Smith, Chair Maker.  Cause of death: Bronchitis (certified).  The person registering the death and who 'made her mark' was an Elizabeth Smith of Loughton - no other details.  A good candidate was son Christopher's wife, if she was still alive herself in 1873 (died between the 1871 and 1881 census).  Certainly, Christopher & Elizabeth's two youngest children at the time of the 1871 census were both born in "Lowton" [sic], so there is evidence that this daughter-in-law had been in Loughton in the time period not long before 1873.

Offline 3lle00

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Re: Woodlock Smith
« Reply #49 on: Tuesday 28 September 21 16:31 BST (UK) »
Hi, Thanks for your reply! I'll be sure to read through all of this properly soon :)