Help needed to break down my brickwall

[aggiebagwash]

I really, really need some advice on this family, would anyone be willing to have a look with a fresh set of eyes to see what I am missing.

I am searching for the birth of Helen Duncanson who married Peter Morrison in Stirling November 1870 age 19. On her marriage certificate it gives her parents as Thomas Duncanson Butcher Journeyman and Sarah Duncanson maiden name Henderson. On her death certificate in 1916  it gives her age as 59 which would mean she was born 1857 not 1850/1, and the same parents names but it doesn't say MS before Henderson as on other records on the same page.

This is where my problems start. I cannot find Helen's birth record or the marriage of a Thomas Duncanson butcher/flesher to a Sarah Henderson hawker.  I think I have found Thomas on a couple of censuses who states his occupation as Master Butcher/Flesher and the death record for a Thomas Master Butcher. However I can't prove that this is the right Thomas as this one I think married a Janet Allison in St Ninian's 1850. Janet died and then he married Agnes Bain who was 18 years younger than him. He appears to be the only Thomas Duncanson who was a butcher/flesher in the area.

Can anyone please help me to unravel this mystery before I tear my hair out. Aaarh!!

Wait until I start on the Morrison side they are even more elusive.

Margaret

[AMBLY]

Hi Margaret

Sorry! a few questions  ......Just so I read it right....when Helen died it named her mother as just  "Sarah HENDERSON"  rather than Sarah DUNCANCSON, MS HENDERSON?

On which record was Sarah HENDERSON named as a Hawker?
Are either Sarah or Thomas stated as deceased on either marriage or death of Helen?

In Census 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1901 (subsequent to the marriage) what age and places of birth did it say for Helen?

Cheers 
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

Hi Margaret

OK, have answered most of my own questions 
Some from this other topic in 2006
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,121563.0.html

CERT: Helen's death:
Helen MORRISON age 59,  widow of Peter MORRISON  Pit Labourer died 22nd June 1916, ....... Usual residence, 88 Main Street, St. Ninians.  Daughter of Thomas DUNCANSON (Butcher Master) deceased and Sarah HENDERSON (Hawker) deceased .........Death registered by Thomas MORRISON , son of 1, Weaver Row, St. Ninians

CERT : Peter's Death:
Peter MORRISON, Pit Labourer married to Helen DUNCANSON died 1st January 1907 at 1hr 30m AM at 64, Main Street, St. Ninians. (Usual Residence - 88, Main Street, St. Ninians) aged 57. Son of Peter MORRISON (Quarryman) deceased and Margaret MORRISON,  deceased. ..........death registered by his son, Thomas MORRISON, present of 51, Main Street, St. Ninians.

IGI Children born to Peter MORRISON and Helen DUNCANSON which made it on to IGI:
1) Sarah Henderson MORRISON b Glasgow  Apr 1872, Bridgeton, Glasgow LNK
2) Peter MORRISON b Aug 1874 High Church, Glasgow LNK

Census:
1871:  Cannot locate newly wed Peter and Helen - possibly in STG St Ninians/Bannockburn  or poss in LNK where they - or at least Helen was, by Apr 1872.

1881: Steins Square, St Ninians
488/2, ED 3, pg 27
Head: Peter Morrison, 34, labourer, b Bannockburn STG
Wife: Helen, 28, b  Stirling STG
Son: Peter 6, b Glasgow LNK
Son: Thomas  3, Glasgow LNK
Son: William 11 mth, b  Bannockburn STG
(Peter Snr's possible mother Margaret MORISON is living next door)
(Where is Sarah b 1872 - did she die before 1881)

1891: Quakerfield, Bannockburn, St Ninians, Stirlingshire
488/2, ED 3, pg 11
Head: Helen MORRISON 37, b Stirling STG
Son: Thomas MORRISON 13, Scholar, b Glasgow LNK
Son: William MORRISON 10, Scholar, b Bannockburn STG
Son: Joseph MORRISON 8, Scholar, b Bannockburn STG
Son: James MORRISON 6, Scholar, b Bannockburn STG
(Father Peter maybe  "down the Pit" and may have gotten missed off this Census. This was common for Pit workers. If his son Peter had not died between 1881/1891, then he was likely too down the pit at this time?)

1901 Old Bridge, Bannockburn, St Ninians, Stirlingshire
488/2,  ED 1 pg 22
Head: Peter MORRISON 50, Pithead labourer, b Bannockburn STG
Wife: Hellen MORRISON 45, b Stirling, STG
Son: Joseph MORRIOSN 18, Coalminer Hewer, b b Bannockburn STG
Son: James MORRISON 15, Coalminer Hewer, b b Bannockburn STG
Dau: Mary Ann MORRISON  9, Scholar,  b Bannockburn STG
Adopted Dau: Mary DRUMMOND 8 mths, b Stirling, STG
Boarder Jsoeph WILSON N 52, Pit Sinker, b England


Helen :--
Marriage Nov 1870 -  age 19 =  born 1851
1871 - age ?
1881 - age 28 = 1853 (and abt 17 in 1870)
1891 - age 37 = 1854 (and abt 16 in 1870)
1901 = age 45 = 1856 (and abt 14 in 1870)
Died Jun 1916 age 59 - age 59 = 1857 (and abt 13 in 1870)

Possibility: Helen did up her age, to make herself over 18 when she married Peter - but possibly was born around 1853/1854 (oh for 1855!) . ANd then began downing her age a wee bit, when she hit her 40's    ??

Or it may depend on when a birthday fell .....and whether or not she applied her own 'rounding" to her Census ages becasue of it

I guess: the one thing to ask: Regarding the marriage of Helen and Peter:
What is the actual wording in the column for Helen's parent's information?
Who were the witness to the marriage?

Cheers
AMBLY

[aggiebagwash]

Hi Ambly

Thanks for all your hard work. It says Thomas Duncanson Butcher Journeyman and underneath Sarah Duncanson m.s Henderson. The witnesses were Peter Henderson and Mary Ann Duncanson.

I have looked for Mary Ann with parents Thomas and Sarah/Janet/Agnes but can't find any link. As for Peter Henderson maybe he was a cousin? Both give 16 Low Castle Hill as their address if that's any help.

Can't believe that I missed the two children on the IGI I think my brain is a bit addled at the moment.

You may be right about the two Peter's being at work because Peter the son went on to have a daughter in 1907  named Helen Duncanson Morrison. She died 1908. Peter the father died 1907 so your idea about them being at work makes sense.

Margaret

[MonicaL]

 Hi Margaret and Ambly

There is one possibility for Helen in 1871. You would have to look at the original on SP as i think the transcription is gone awry...but it could well be Helen just married with her mother 

Shean (could this be Sarah) Henderson 44, no occupation showing, b. Eilenton, Midloth
Mary Ann Drummond (sic. or Henderson) 19 daughter, servant b. Stirling
Ellen Morrison    18 (sic. or Henderson) 18 daughter, mill worker b. Stirling

Address: 102 St Mary's Wynd, Stirling

If the right entry, it would look like Sarah was certainly not married to Thomas Duncanson.  Something to work from....

Regards.

Monica 

[MonicaL]

A possible entry for Sarah Henderson in 1861 at Stirling Poor House:

Sarah Henderson, 30, inmate, Domestic Servant, b. Edinburgh St Cuthberts

If the right entry, I wonder where her daughters were and who was looking after them 

Monica

Added: Possible entry 1861 for Helen as Helen Duncanson age 10 b Stirling at the Industrial School in Stirling. A further entry for female A. Duncanson age 13 b. Stirling (I'm thinking maybe Mary Ann?) alongside Helen.

[MonicaL]

I think also I have found Helen, sister and mother in 1851, ages a little all over the place - what's new!

Emma (father!) Henderson 56, lab. (mason), b. Ireland
Mary Henderson    50, Ireland
Sarah Henderson 24, daughter, b. Eding, Midlothian
Mary Henderson    4, granddaughter, b. Stirling
Ellen Henderson 7 Mo, granddaughter, b. Stirling

Address:  Tolbooth Wynd, Stirling

Monica

[AMBLY]

Hi Monica and Margaret  

I was pondering over that 1851 too Monica  Ah! But what go me was  the 2 girls (on a not to be named source  )  had them listed as Nieces to the head! So they were grandaughters....


Obviously the Head is not Emma (maybe it's Andrew? Or Eamon or similar?)

There were 4 Hendersons in the Workhouse 1861....not sure if they were all listed 'together, though - I suspect Mary and Sarah being together at least?

1861: Stirling Poorhouse, Stirling, Stirlingshire
Parish: 490, pg 3
Inmate: Mary HENDERSON 66, Domestic Servant, b Ireland
Inmate: Sarah HENDERSON 30, Domestic Servant, b St Cuthbert Midlothian
Inmate: Christina HENDERSON 23, b Stirling
Inmate: Andrew HENDERSON 8, SCholar, b STirling

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

OOh, that was agoo 1871 find Monica!! Well spotted.

Margaret - a look on the original of that 1871, may hopefully state Ellen MORRISON  is a married woman!

I see a wall crumbling   

Cheers
AMBLY