Help needed to break down my brickwall

[MonicaL]

Ambly

The 1851 census transcript entry does have Mary and Helen as nieces not granddaughters (too many searches this pm ) but Sarah does show as daughter 

I wonder if the 1861 census entry at Stirling Poorhouse for Mary H 60 is the same Mary 50 who shows in 1851. Feels like it doesn't it.

Monica

[MonicaL]

Likely death entry for Helen's mother Sarah:

1888   HENDERSON   SARAH    55   BANNOCKBURN   /STIRLING   488/02 0021

Monica

[MonicaL]

Dooh! I am slowing down now...

Witness at Helen's wedding....Mary Ann Duncanson...her sister....

As you can tell Ambly, I'm not long before switch off and bed!

Monica

[AMBLY]

Darn, shame about the 1851 neice bit - but I still bet they were  - or at least little Ellen, was a Grandaughter belonging to their daughter Sarah....

I agree with you though, this certainley does feel 'right" that the 1851 mother and daughter are in the workhouse together 1861.  What made me wonder about the name of the Head, "Emma" in 1851 - was seeing an Andrew in the workhouse 1861 - Emma/Andrew?? Maybe!

Did you notice !! I just did....

1871:  The 19 yr old Neice - Mary DRUMMOND
1901: The baby Mary DRUMMOND in 1901 with Peter and Helen.

Big coincidence? !  

I am actually peering half blind too!    I was just busy wondering if Peter Henderson, witness was Peter MORRISON's father - took me a good 5 minutes to twig on to that unlikelihood !

[MonicaL]

Emma/Andrew?? Henderson in 1851 would appear to have been James  according to SP index search!

Monica

[aggiebagwash]

Thank you, thank you, thank you Ambly and Monica.

The only thing  I have checked on SP so far is the 1851 and BINGO!

James Henderson 56 lab. (mason) Ireland
Mary Henderson 50 Ireland
Sarah Henderson 24 Edinburgh (Little hussy)
Mary Ann Duncanson 4 Stirling
Helen Duncanson 7 months Stirling


At least she had the decency to give them their fathers surname.

Going to have a look at the later censuses this afternoon.


Thank you once again

Margaret

[MonicaL]

That's great Margaret.  As Ambly said, at least one brick wall now has a big chink of light...until you hit the Irish shores of course!

Just curious, did the 1851 census have Helen and Mary Ann as nieces or granddaughters to James?

...The other thing that struck me now. We have Helen in 1851 showing at 7 months (census that year on 30/31 March) so she would have been born around July 1850. 99.99% Father, Thomas Duncanson, then goes off to marry Janet Allison 8-10 weeks later....I hope he kept his butcher's knives under lock and key 

Regards.

Monica

[aggiebagwash]

Thanks Monica

I have looked for Helen/Ellen's birth but can't find it. On the 1851 census it names them as nieces but they are definitely granddaughters. I wonder if that's just an excuse they came up with to cover the fact that they were illegitimate?

The death certificate of Sarah Henderson confirms many of the details that you and Ambly found. Sarah was single, daughter of James Henderson a fish hawker ? and Mary Lachlan age 55. Helen Morrison was the informant so I know she is the right Sarah.

I think, I am, like you certain that the Thomas Duncanson Master Butcher was Helen's father (and they talk about today's morals?) Wonder what the Jeremy Kyle show would make of it?

I agree that it looks like they were in the poor house/industrial school on the 1861 because I can't find James so it looks like he died between 1851 and 61. No sign of his death though.

Margaret

[MonicaL]

Remember that Helen's (and Mary Ann's) birth was pre the start of official reg. in Scotland from 1855. The most you are likely to find will be an entry in the Old Parish Registers (this assumes that they belonged to the Establish Church of Scotland which given their Irish origins may not be the case).  Sadly you may never find official confirmation of Helen's birth, it is lucky that she was born by months just before the 1851 census from which it is easier to estimate her birth.  Would have been much harder to be more certain of her age if she had missed that census - as you have seen, her age became more erratic in the following censuses 

Regards.

Monica