Author Topic: Jones and Sharp of Baltinglass/Hackettstown  (Read 27564 times)

Offline carhoglucan

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Re: Jones and Sharp of Baltinglass/Hackettstown
« Reply #45 on: Tuesday 06 September 22 11:04 BST (UK) »
CDN Many thanks for that.  Every little bit helps.  I will have a read through it and see does it throw anymore light on things. There were so many John Jones's in the area.  I'm very slowly getting there i.e. I now have the Holdenstown and Rathvilly connection.  Thanks again. Caroline

Offline Charlie J

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Re: Jones and Sharp of Baltinglass/Hackettstown
« Reply #46 on: Saturday 17 September 22 10:55 BST (UK) »
Hi cdn
Sorry for taking so long to answer. I haven't looked into our tree in so long I wanted to refresh my memory before assigning what we know to a reply. I have added my answers into your post in brackets.
Charlie J,
What a delightful surprise to hear from you! I am eager to collaborate and will consider collaboration valuable even if it disproves what I thought I knew. My understanding of Irish records, place names, etc. is far from expert, so please don't be over-polite about disagreeing/correcting. That said, here is more about Jane and evidence by which I'm connecting my ancestor to yours.

(We also have a Jane Jones B1793 who married a George Browne 1811 and died 1874 who I have as a possible daughter to John Jones B1731. She had many links to Shepherd Jones B1814 son of John Jones B1781. Unfortunately a few years ago I lost most of my research, so not sure if I had concrete evidence how she is related. Fortunately most records were recovered plus many new records found. I think we can take it your Jane is the correct daughter of John Jones B1731 and I will have to try to resolve how my Jane is related and that's OK, it's all part of the journey.)

In addition to the son named John Shepherd (as spelled on his grave marker), she had another named William J. with strong indication the "J." stood for Jones. Indexed marriage records list Jane Jones and Thomas Condell, married in 1801. A newspaper marriage announcement from May 1801 says Miss Jones, the daughter of John Jones, Esq. of Hacketstown, married Thomas Condell from Carnew. I'm interpreting Hacketstown and Carnew as parish names here. A tithe applotment record for Eagle Hill, Hacketstown, Carlow dated November 1823 shows Jane Condell occupying land right next to that occupied by John Jones and Shepard Jones. July 1824, Jane and 10 of her children emigrated to the USA, where her branch has remained, as far as I'm aware. I haven't found records for Thomas or one additional daughter, but they did end up here, too, and it seems reasonable to believe that Thomas was already gone in November 1823. Deed memorial 490515, Book 717, page 379, having to do with Aunt Rachel Barker Marks bequeathing land to John Jones the younger, lists Thomas Condell as a witness.

(The name Shepherd(and all it's spelling variations) would most likely come from the previous owner of Woodside. A man called Anthony Shepherd. Aunt Rachel Barker Marks is believed to be a sister to Janes Jones nee Barker. There is another sister too but her name escapes me. Also I do believe Rachel and Thomas do appear in some documents as witness to a number of dealings.)
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

Have you figured out exactly how the older Shepard (the one on the 1823 tithe applotment) fits in? He seems like a brother to Jane and the younger John, but I have found nothing to confirm that.

(This Shephard Jones B1779 is a brother of John Jones B1781. His grave is shown in a photo earlier in this thread.)

There is another witness to the deed mentioned above whose name I can't make out. Possibly another brother-in-law? Do you know anything about that?

An 1838 newspaper death announcement says, "February 21, at her son's residence, Newtown, Baltinglass, in the 99th year of her age, Mrs. John Jones, relict of the late John Jones, Esq., of Woodside, Hacketstown." Do you have anything to corroborate or contradict that being our grandmother?
(This is Jane Jones nee Barker (Father Joseph Barker D1788) married to John Jones B1731. This makes her DOB circa 1740. Her Son was John Jones B1781 of Newtown Saunders and this is where I grew up. Also a photo of the grave can be seen earlier in this thread)
I have not, so far, found a concrete link to the Holdenstown/Rathvilly Jones before the mid to late 1800s but suspect there is one. It just needs the right document to be found. I hope this useful in some way. For me further research needs to be done in records offices which do not have material online. I just haven't had the time to do so.
Are you living in the US?
Despite high infant mortality rates and lower life expectancies, not one of your direct ancestors died childless.

Offline cdn

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Re: Jones and Sharp of Baltinglass/Hackettstown
« Reply #47 on: Wednesday 21 September 22 12:06 BST (UK) »
Yes, Charlie, I am indeed in the US, so sadly will be no help at all getting to those documents not available online. I fear I'll likely be a bit of a disappointment as far as contributing to what you already know. You were far ahead of me when I first came across this thread and still are. I found the magazine obit for John Jones B1731 and the book describing his grave marker, so thanks for those in addition to my thanks for your answers to my questions. Your grave marker pictures were already unavailable, so I was glad you had transcribed the information from them.

I have not come across Jane Jones Browne B1793. For me, being another Jane and the age of Jane Barker Jones at her birth argue against her being a sister to my Jane, but not to the point I'd say it's impossible. I wonder if she may be in the next generation. Do you think the John Jones and Jane Barker who married in 1769 are "ours"? If so, that leaves a lot of room for yet-to-be-discovered (by me, anyway) aunts and uncles, perhaps even a previous marriage. Maybe she's the daughter of an older son of John Jones B1731?

I had wondered if Shepherd might turn up as a surname farther back. Interesting that you found a connected Shepherd! Not, as yet genealogically connected, though? Is the place where Joneses are living called "Eagle Hill" in the tithe records and in some deeds, I think, the same place called "Woodside" elsewhere? If not, can you explain the distinction better than what I've been able to figure out on my own? Rachel Barker Marks being a sister to Jane Barker Jones and Joseph their father was my interpretation, too. I don't think I've seen documents to which Rachel was a witness, and the only one I saw witnessed by Thomas Condell was the one I referenced that connected him to the Joneses and Barkers. I do recall seeing Thomas Barker's name, but I don't think I'd worked out how he was connected when I had to make myself stop because I was acting too obsessed to do anything else.

I grew up near where Jane's grandson lived and his property is still in our family. I love that I have pictures of people separated by five generations in what is recognizably the same front yard, but your Newtown Saunders roots are more impressive!

If you are adding Jane to your tree, you would probably like to have some of the source documentation I have for her. I'll try to PM you a bit more, but a marriage record is available online here:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WG49-G13Z

and the ship's passenger list when she and her children emigrated here:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K8C9-ZWB

As I mentioned, she had an additional daughter who also emigrated: Elizabeth B1805. The older girls' ages are a bit off on the passenger list. (I wonder if something was easier if they were all under 21?) Other documents indicate daughter Jane was born 1802 and Sarah in 1803. I have traced all the children to their deaths in the US, so they were out of the mix in Ireland after 1824. The only one for whom I have nothing explicitly stating a relationship is Joseph, but dates, places, business connections, etc. make me fairly confident he was Joseph Dodd Condell, so I would be alert to any Dodds who seemed connected. If that ever turns up, it could be on the Condell side, though.
Jones, Condell

Offline Charlie J

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Re: Jones and Sharp of Baltinglass/Hackettstown
« Reply #48 on: Thursday 22 September 22 18:19 BST (UK) »
Hi CDN

I will email you those pictures.
Jane Jones nee Brown B1793, as I do not have any record of her parents I will have to do some research to locate her, correctly, on our Tree.
The only other sibling to your Jane Jones B1780/81 and my John Jones B1781 is Shephard Jones B1779 and married in 1805 so is unlikely to be the father of Jane B1793.
The years between John Jones and Jane Barker marriage to the birth of their first child has always been a puzzle. Possibly child mortality is the most likely consideration.
Eagle hill and Woodside are townlands next to each other and just south of a town called Hacketstown, Co. Carlow and still exist as does the family home at Woodside, though we are reasonably sure the original house was destroyed in the 1798 rebellion in Ireland. I think there is some documentation regarding this, including compensation claims. I will send you some links to the townlands.
Despite high infant mortality rates and lower life expectancies, not one of your direct ancestors died childless.


Offline Kiltaglassan

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Re: Jones and Sharp of Baltinglass/Hackettstown
« Reply #49 on: Thursday 22 September 22 18:38 BST (UK) »

Quote
Eagle hill and Woodside are townlands next to each other and just south of a town called Hacketstown, Co. Carlow and still exist as does the family home at Woodside....

Woodside townland in the in civil parish of Hacketstown.
https://www.townlands.ie/carlow/rathvilly/hacketstown/hacketstown/woodside/
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2202875#map=13/52.8579/-6.5571

Two Eaglehill townlands, one in the civil parish of Hacketstown, the other in the civil parish of Clonmore.
https://www.townlands.ie/carlow/rathvilly/hacketstown/hacketstown/eaglehill/
https://www.townlands.ie/carlow/rathvilly/clonmore/clonmore/eaglehill/



Researching: Cuthbertson Co. Derry, Scotland & Australia; Hunter Co. Derry; Jackson Co. Derry, Scotland & Canada; Scott Co. Derry; Neilly Co. Antrim & USA; McCurdy Co. Antrim; Nixon Co. Cavan, Co. Donegal, Canada & USA; Ryan & Noble Co. Sligo