Lake family of Bale, Briston, & Stiffeky

[rupiezucki]

Greetings from Canada

I am quite lost right now, not being familiar with many Norfolk placenames.

What I appear to have is a family in which one brother's wife and chidlren show up as the wife and children of another brother.  I am unable to find a record of the first brother's death or the second brother's marriage.  I would appreciate any information that anyone can provide, including any helpful advice. 

Here is what I have so far:

1841 census Bale HO / 107 / 776 / 20
England LAKE 35 Ag Lab
Sarah 30
John 13
England 12
James 7
Sarah 3

from 1851
England 45
Sarah 43
John 23
James 17
Sarah A 6

Q.   Did Sarah die and the name was reused?

1851 census HO 107 / 1809
England LAKE is listed as servant (Team man) to a farmer named John Parvis in Brinton


Info:  I know that all the boys used England as a middle name.

By 1861 there were no boys at home.

1861 Census
I can't find John England LAKE.

but

RG 9 / 1246 / 175 p1
England LAKE 32 Ag Lab Bale
Susannah 36 Briston
William 7 Stiffkey
James 5 Bale
Mary A 3  Bale
John 11 mos Bale

A marriage between England LAKE and Susannah DUNN was reg in Walsingham Mar 1853. My mother's cousin from Durham says this marriage was between John and Susannah, and took place on 30 Jan 1853, but I have no idea where her information came from.

1871 census
still no John Lake!

but

RG 10 / 1853 / 71 p3

England LAKE Junr 39 Ag Lab Bale
Susan 43 Briston
James 15 Bale
Mary Ann 12 Bale
Henry 8 Bale
Thomas 2 Bale

1881 - This is where the fun starts ....

England Junior has disappeared.

but

RG 11 / 4942 / 71  p 27

County Durham, Tanfield, Mountsett

John LAKE 50 Bale
Susannah 56 Briston
Henry 17 Bale
Thomas 12 Bale

Thomas is actually Robert Thomas, born 21 Dec 1868 in Bale.  He is my mom's grandfather and she remembers him using both names.

So - what happened to England Junior? 

How did John get Susannah and the children? I can't get him married to her, but bmd is still not complete...

I have tried searching all of the censuses (I am paying for ancestry.com) with all of the permutations I can think of to find John on 1861 or 1871, or England on 1881 or later.   The father is till in Norfold until his death was reg in Walsingham in Dec 1881.  His wife Sarah is shown living with her grandchildren James E RAMM  and Sarah A RAMM in Bale.

Thanks in advance for any help - and if anyone knows how the Lakes came from Devon and Cornwall to Norfolk, I'd appreciate that info as well.

Sign me,
Confused in Canada

Holly

[Greenman22]

Hi Holly,

  Like you I have Lake family (Norfolk) connections, except my arm of the family from west of Norfolk around Kings Lynn and not the north like your connection.


1841 census Bale HO / 107 / 776 / 20
England LAKE 35 Ag Lab
Sarah 30
John 13
England 12
James 7
Sarah 3

from 1851
England 45
Sarah 43
John 23
James 17
Sarah A 6

 In regards to the above have you tried looking back further? As England may have been there mothers or grandmother maiden name. A good place to start searching would be http://wwwfamilysearch.org Try searching the International data base first.

 Back to the above names, is it possible she married the other brother, after the death say of her husband (other brother)? This was not uncommon in Norfolk as was 1st cousin marriages. What does not help is that there was loads of errors in the 1841 and 1851censuses not to mention the other 4 censuses that followed. The first two were the worse by far.

heres a map also to help you get your bearings.

Andy
Greenman22
London, UK.

[rupiezucki]

Hi Andy,

Thanks for your reply and the most bodacious map.

I have already exhausted ancestry.com and the LDS site.

There is a little more under the Norfolk lookup requests on this.

I was hoping to stumble upon a long lost relative, or someone who had found some of my people while researching their own Lakes.

Thanks again,
Holly

[Greenman22]

Hi Holly,
     Here's a couple of useful web sites that maybe of some use to you.

Andy..

http://noah.norfolk.gov.uk/

http://uk.geocities.com/davidbooty@btinternet.com/NorfolkSurnames/Index.html

[magicdragon]

ok ... I am related to a whole heavenly host of lakes all from the area.  I still live in Norfolk now and have connections via a certain site(!) with a man who has made it his life mission to list all the Lake brigade from the area.  I shall pass your queary on and see what he make sof it...if anyone can help he is the man!

best regards

magic d

[rupiezucki]

Lovely, Magic!

Thanks so much,
Holly

[magicdragon]

answers ...england lake senior born Bale 1805 to Mary lake..illegitimate. mary is a widow...possibly his real father has the surname England as that is very common in the Bale area and was a typical way of dealing with illegitimate births at the time and place.

Anyway..England Lake marries 7 Nov 1826 Sarah Claxton at Bale.  they have several children including one England Lake who marries Susannah Dunn 30 Jan 1853 at Stiffkey. He is 24, she 23.  England's father is England Lake a labourer and hers Henry Dunn likewise a labourer.  So def not John who marries her.  The anomolies re the 1841/51 census dates for Sarah Lake are explained as the 41 census worked on a round up or down five years basis so ages were not precise nor meant to be ... they were only a rough guide and again many simply were not all that certain how old they were!

One hint from working alot with this family in the north norfolk area is to be aware that lake is also spelt Leake/Leke/Leek/Leke.  Most were illiterate til way into the early 1900's and my experience is that the name was nothing if not fluid.  The same is true of middle/second name useage around here.  They chop and change at will. 

Look at freerega site that has most Norfolk records free online.  I dont think the lakes ever wer in Devon or Cornwall ..my side goes back to the Bale/Hindringham area to the 1600's.  One last point your england lakes mpother mary is most likely the former second wife of William Lake who is a direct gggggf to me with his ffirst wife. Small world. hope this helps Magic

[magicdragon]

correction...Mary Lake is almost certainly the widow of John Lake who died Aug 30 1804 in Bale aged 61.  Mary was formerly Mary Atthow and she died in Bale 1816 aged 57.  They have many children born in the late 1700's in Bale.  Note that England was bapt sept 1805 so 11 months after the death of John and therefore it is unlikely he is genetically a Lake more likely an England who were farmers in Hindringham and Gunthorpe only a mile or so from Bale in each direction..esp as it says he is illegitmate and not that his father is deceased.  Also Mary has another son John in 1809 also illegitimate.  It would also explain why the children have the middle name England.  Sadly though it means you will probab;y never be able to prove England Lake's genetic father tho at least you can link back to earlier Englands and also now the Atthow side.  Obviously he did have several half siblings that were Lakes from his mother and John Lake. 

best regards

Magic

[wilkin06]

Hi Holly and others,

Good to find others researching England Lake and family. Holly, I am also from the Co. Durham branch of the Norfolk Lakes and a descendant of England Lake.

My ancestor is William Lake, born to England and Susan(nah) Dunn 21//5/1853 at Stiffkey. Like you, Holly, I was also unable to find him or England Lake jnr. on the 1871 cencus, but William was at Hobson colliery in Co. Durham in 1881. I expect you have also found John E. Lake aged 62, on the 1891 cencus at White-le-Head, Tanfield a cartman, b. Bale. I believe this is England Lake junior's brother, so more than one wing of the family migrated to Co. Durham.

I have a copy of the marriage certificate of England Lake (labourer) and Susannah Dunn and the details you have are correct (30/1/1853). Fathers are England Lake (labourer) and Henry Dunn (Labourer), Parish of Stiffkey.

It is interesting that you mention Cornwall and Devon. My Grandmother said that the family said that they had moved their shop up to Co. Durham to follow the miners. There are no mines in Norfolk but plenty in Cornwall/Devon. The Lakes have clearly been in Norfolk a long time but I wonder about the Claxtons? George and Melinda Claxton, grocers, lived next door to England Lake snr and his wife Sarah (nee Claxton) in Bale in 1881. Or the family story may be a misunderstanding. The farm labourers moved to the Co. Durham to become miners and therefore the shopkeepers could be said to be following them.

Good luck with your searches. I hope to go down to Norfolk soon to do some more research.
wilkin06