Author Topic: your thoughts?  (Read 1759 times)

Offline Rewcastle

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your thoughts?
« on: Sunday 20 April 08 13:54 BST (UK) »
My 4th gt grandfather was John Armstrong b.1782, he was the son of Ann b.1740, d.1806 and John Armstrong, occupation: a Sawyer, b. abt.1740 d. bef.1806, John and Ann both signed their wedding certificate when they married in 1768.

 At the time of my 4th gt grandfathers wedding in 1810, both his parents were dead, the wedding was witnessed by a Dr John Armstrong M.D, b.1749 d.1814. who lived three streets away. I have yet to find Dr. John as a witness at any other wedding in that area.

My 4th great grandparents lived in Walker place, Tynemouth, which at the time was described as where many of the principal Shipowners, Merchants, Master Mariners and Gentry lived. One resident was the local M.P.

From the sale of one of the houses at the time they were big houses, 5 bedrooms, study, kitchen, library, nursery etc., with them big poles outside (forgot what they call them).
My 4th great grandfather was a mariner at the time and later became a lath render, Lath merchant.

I'm thinking that at the time, there seems to be a bit of a gap in class system between a Sawyer, Lath render, Lath merchant and that of of a Doctor/Surgeon.

Would you think Dr John and my 4th/5th gt grandfather would have been related or do you think i'm being a bit presumptuous?




Rewcastle.





Offline toni*

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Re: your thoughts?
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 20 April 08 15:05 BST (UK) »
firstly determine how big the town was at that time, i.e 1,000 occupants more less etc
secondly determine how common the name Armstrong was in the town at that time
thirdly trace Dr John Armstrong , forward - back maybe sideawys to see if you can get a connection. i would doubt he was uncle to your John as you Johns father was also called JOhn - confusing ? maybe he was a cousin
could thy just have asked the Doctor (who happened to be called also John Armstrong) to witness the wedding?


Holman & Vinton- Cornwall, Wojciechowskyj & Hussak- Bukowiec & Zahutyn, Bentley & Richards- Leicester, Taylor-Kent/Sussex  Punnett-Sussex,  Bear/e- Monkleigh Gazey-Warwicks

UK Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchive

Offline Rewcastle

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Re: your thoughts?
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 20 April 08 18:15 BST (UK) »
Hi Toni,

Tynemouth/North Shields was really starting to grow at that point of time and was becoming a booming town. Dr John opened the first dispensary in Tynemouth. There were an influx of lots of  Armstrongs who were mariners and shipowners, they seemed to have come from every direction possible and the name was becoming common.

The problem i have is, i have no date of birth or death yet for my 5th great grandfather only estimated. When he was married at Hexham, it said he was of the parish at the time of his marriage, though there is no guarantee that he was born there. Hexham at that time had the biggest population of Armstrongs in the UK. I've tried the militia list for hexham in 1761 and can't find a possible match. also the parish records just say John son of John, John son of William etc.,

Quote
thirdly trace Dr John Armstrong , forward - back maybe sideawys to see if you can get a connection.

You mean like this  ::) ???

Dr John came from Brampton, Cumberland, when he died, he was taken from Tynemouth to be buried in the family vault at Brampton , unfortunately there is no sign of the family vault..

 In Dr John's will (1814), he mentions his wife Mary, who he married the year before he died, he was  60 years of age, she was 34 years his junior and they had a son called John. ::) He also left money to Charles and William Armstrong, merchants in London who in the will were described as relatives.

I have a copy of the will (1789), for the father of Charles and William, yup, he was also called John Armstrong esq. of Brampton, Cumberland. He left his diamond ring, gold beaded cane and a print of Doctor John Armstrong to his son William and his gold watch to his son Charles. The estate went to his wife Margaret, and in trust for his sons William and Charles. who were, yet to attend or were at school.

Dr. John's father was an apothecary/surgeon and he Lived in Brampton, Cumberland, he was also called John (surprised!).
This John Armstrong, Surgeon/Apothecary and his wife Jane are mentioned in the will of Jane Armstrong, spinster of Brampton, Cumberland.

In the Will (1767) of Jane Armstrong, spinster, mentioned above, she mentions various people, starting with John Armstrong, apothecary of Brampton and his wife Jane, leaving them 10 Guineas each to buy a ring each to remember her by, as well as all the furniture house hold stuff, etc., she finishes, after her disposing of her legacies, by leaving the remainder of  her furtune, to be equally divided between John Armstrong, apothecary of Brampton and John Armstrong of Bowholm, Cannby (Canonbie, Scotland).

The bit of the will, in between, she leaves to various people, some in London and some in Dumfries described as her 'dear friends' each mentioned gets £100.

She mentions Armstrongs in Kirtletown (Kirtleton, Dumfries, Scotland), Bowholm, (Canonbie) and some Armstrongs from another place which i have yet to decipher. several of these Armstrongs mentioned are called John.

Just to complicate things, she leaves to Ann Armstrong, daughter of William Armstrong her fathers half-brother.
and later on, she leaves to Robert Armstrong son of my mothers youngest brother.
 hmm, seems like an Armstrong married an Armstrong. (what a surprise).

With the names of John, Charles, Richard, David, William and places like, Kirtletown, (Kirtleon), London, Dumfries, etc., turning up in the wills. I googled a bit and came across a basic tree including a Dr. Charles Armstrong of London, son of Dr. John Armstrong of Godalming, Surrey, son of Dr. Richard Armstrong son of David advocate of Edinburgh, son of David of Kirtleton, Dumfries. to Christopher of Dumfries still alive in 1530. This tree was in a google book, 'A Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain' i'm not sure how reliable the information in it would be.


I did find a book from the 1800's in Sunderland library once, which listed pedigrees, along side my 3rd great grandfathers name was a tick to indicate a pedigree had been done but i have yet to find it.

Hope there aren't too many John Armstrongs to confuse you.  :D

ps: I have no Smiths or Jones in my family tree.  :P



Rewcastle.







Offline toni*

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Re: your thoughts?
« Reply #3 on: Monday 21 April 08 14:42 BST (UK) »
Hi, yes i did mean like that  ;D
will have another think
Holman & Vinton- Cornwall, Wojciechowskyj & Hussak- Bukowiec & Zahutyn, Bentley & Richards- Leicester, Taylor-Kent/Sussex  Punnett-Sussex,  Bear/e- Monkleigh Gazey-Warwicks

UK Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchive

Offline celia

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Re: your thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: Monday 21 April 08 16:01 BST (UK) »
Quote
with them big poles outside (forgot what they call them).
That gave me a laugh ;D ;D ;D

Celia
Celia 1941-2010
~~~~~~~~~~~~


Rake Lane Burials

M.I.Merchant Marina's Rake Lane

FLORENCE JONES MARRIED JOHN GIBBON HIGNETT IN 1885

Offline toni*

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Re: your thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: Monday 21 April 08 21:12 BST (UK) »
i'm sorry i don't have an answer  :-\
i can only suggest other ways of finding your relatives rather than a way of proving a link between the names you already have

such as
registers of voters
smallpox vaccanation records
land owners
school records
historical directories
army (and the like) records

the only one i can think of is  will belonging to your ancestors if tehy metion Doctor Johns family wills

oh and MI's or gravestone inscriptions
Holman & Vinton- Cornwall, Wojciechowskyj & Hussak- Bukowiec & Zahutyn, Bentley & Richards- Leicester, Taylor-Kent/Sussex  Punnett-Sussex,  Bear/e- Monkleigh Gazey-Warwicks

UK Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchive

Offline Rewcastle

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Re: your thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 22 April 08 04:17 BST (UK) »
The only other thing that i've come across is that Dr. John was the 'Grand Master of the Loyal Orange Association' for the County of Northumberland and maybe, John could also have been a member.  :-\

This would be a bit of a shock to some of the family if he was a member of the 'Loyal Orange Association', as every side of the family over the past 100 years and their descendants have been Irish catholics or descended from Irish Catholics, except my paternal side of the family who changed to catholics just over 100 years ago.

Some of them emigrated from Ireland during the famine, some later on due to the high rents and evictions, who seemed to be have been involved with the 'Molly Maguires' and others who were on the republican side in the early 1900's. One of which, was involved in the murder of two people who had been on 'a list' for some time according to the newpaper article. later on he was imprisoned (not for the first time), after an ammunition dump was found in the garden and a pistol and mask was found in a nearby shed. He was also mentioned in a debate in 'the Dáil'. Another distant relative has since told me that her great uncle was tarred and feathered by the Black n Tans.

I'm starting to find the skeletons in the cupboard.  ::)


Rewcastle.




Offline iem

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Re: your thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 01 October 21 19:48 BST (UK) »
Hi,
Well, I don't know whether you are still on the case after 13 years ;D BUT the Mary Armstrong mentioned in your Jane Armstrong's will was my gggg-gma - having married Wm Carruthers and gone to Ireland.
Happy to exchange info - I wish ::)
iem
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Offline Kiltpin

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Re: your thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 01 October 21 19:51 BST (UK) »
I think that you might be unlucky - 

Last Active:     19 February 2012, 13:08:28 

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Chas
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