Parish Registers - SCOTT - Baptism

[melonsmum]

I have Agnes SCOTT's death information.

Agnes Scott, married to Thomas Scott, General Warehouseman, died 24th October 1865, aged 38 at 2 Athol Terrace, Victoria Road, Govan.

Her father was John Norval, Comb Maker (deceased) and Agnes Norval, nee Baird (deceased).

If I remember rightly, I struggled to find this family on the 1891 & 1901 Scottish Census.  What a pity I couldn't find the 1841 either.  This could, of course (hopefully) be because they moved to Belfast or some other part of Ireland.

I was reading through some notes that I made whilst talking to an elderly relative a few years ago and they said that a couple of Thomas's sisters lived with him in later life and one acted as a housekeeper to him.

It is so hard to even look for the family in the census here as you have to know the address.  Frustrating.

Melonsmum

[JAP]

This is just for completeness/interest...

The Fasti Ecclesiae Scoticanae lists only ministers of the established Church of Scotland; I've put established with a lower case 'e' because the (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland was the recognized church but was not Established in the same way as the Established Church of England in England.

There were many breakaway sects from the established Church of Scotland.  A good diagram and summary can be found at:
http://website.lineone.net/~davghalgh/churchhistory.html

Ministers of these breakaway Presbyterian sects (such as the Relief Church) are not listed in the Fasti.

JAP
PS: The pre-1855 records on ScotlandsPeople are only from the OPRs i.e. Old Parish Registers of the established Church of Scotland.  However, the IGI does also have some pre-1855 records from breakaway Presbyterian churches
Later PS: The Ministers of the established Church of Scotland sought to have records of the breakaway churches entered into their Parish Registers.  So, if this happens, you might possibly find entries on SP.  In such cases, the established Church minister often made his views clear e.g. the record might be annotated with words such as "baptized by a Seceder" (one can almost hear the disapproval!) or "married by Mr X of the Associate Session", etc   

[JAP]

Hi melonsmum and Monica,

To clarify the position in my own mind I’ll try to set out what I understand to be the current situation.

This is because the subject of the original query – Thomas B SCOTT from Peeblesshire, son of Thomas – has now been dismissed from consideration as have Thomas Beattie SCOTT from Newcastleton, Roxburghshire and Thomas SCOTT b Liverpool.

So what are we left with?

*Melonsmum’s Ggpa was Thomas Beattie SCOTT

*Thomas Beattie married in 1892 in Ireland.  His mc gives his father’s name and occupation as Thomas SCOTT, Manager

*Thomas Beattie was recorded as of ‘full age’ on his mc; as 34 (dob ca 1867) in the 1901 Irish census; as 44 (dob ca 1867) in the 1911 Irish census; and as 85 (dob ca 1866) at his death in Oct 1951

*Thomas Beattie’s occupation was given as Clerk on his mc; Clerk, Linen Business in 1901 and Commercial Clerk, Linen Business in 1911.  Later Irish street directories give his occupation as Foreign Correspondent; the burial register lists him as a Compositor

*On the censuses, Thomas Beattie’s  birthplace is recorded as Scotland; a 2nd cousin of melonsmum thinks he came from a border county of Scotland

*The names of Thomas Beattie’s children don’t seem to offer up any clues as far as Scottish naming patterns are concerned (see reply #13)

*Melonsmum has seen an oil portrait of her Ggggpa painted ca 1840 (see reply #13)

We are now exploring Thomas SCOTT b ca 1865 in Govan parish, Renfrewshire (sic)  – he was still a scholar in 1881 which seems appropriate for a chap who was a Clerk in 1892.  This Thomas has a correctly named father i.e. Thomas SCOTT and father Thomas is involved in the linen/drapery trade (as was Thomas Beattie in Ireland).  Father Thomas was b ca 1825 in Dalkeith, Midlothian; he is the son of Allison (SHIELS) SCOTT who, in the 1851-1871 censuses, is recorded as the Widow of a Relief Church Minister.  …  We can’t find the family in 1841.  And we haven’t found Thomas b ca 1865 or Thomas b ca 1825 in Scotland in 1891 or 1901 – perhaps the family had all gone to Ireland - perhaps after the death of Allison (SHIELS) SCOTT in 1871.
 
Now some thoughts and questions:
1. Does Ggpa Thomas Beattie’s middle name of Beattie appear anywhere other than on his mc?

2. What do you take as the meaning of the occupation of “Foreign Correspondent”?  Perhaps it didn’t have the obvious meaning which we would give to it now?  Perhaps Thomas Beattie was still in the linen trade – but dealing with exports to foreign countries?  Do the addresses in the electoral rolls give any clue whether this might be the case?

3. Melonsmum, do you have any further info about the portrait.  Where does the date of ca 1840 come from.  Where does the info that it’s your Ggggpa (i.e. Thomas Beattie’s grandfather) come from?  Is there any more information about it at all?

Do let me know if I've missed something 

JAP

[JAP]

Hi melonsmum and Monica,

Now the next instalment 

Monica, you are allowed to have a gentle laugh at me    Yes, I've often commented on the way you seem to spend on SP in order to help people - and I've said that I'm miser meany and avoid doing so 

Well, I couldn't resist downloading the Will of Rev James SCOTT, Relief Minister of Jedburgh (no laughing pls).  If either/both of you would like to PM your email address(es), I'll forward it.

This James drew up his Will in 1818; made a codicil in 1820; and died in 1823: the Will was proven in 1830.  What is also interesting is that, in the original Will, Rev James of Jedburgh refers to his "only son Revd James Scott formerly Minister of the Relief Congregation or Church at Dalkeith now in Edinburgh".  So it certainly seems as though the Will concerns the family we are currently exploring.  Son James signed when the Will was proved in 1830.

Rev James of Jedburgh's Will refers not only to his only son James but also to two daughters - to youngest daughter Christian and to his other daughter Agnes who is married to a LAIDLAW and has children James & Jessy.  It also mentions a brother (George) of Rev James snr.

The Relief Church apparently began in Jedburgh.  And it had many adherents - here's a quote from the First Statistical Account of Scotland ca 1791:
"There are four clergymen in the town of Jedburgh; the minister of the Established Church, of the Relief congregation, of the Burgher, and the Antiburgher, seceders. Their respective examination rolls are as follows: Established Church 800; Relief congregation 1200; Burgher congregation 600; Antiburgher 150 ... Near a half of all the families in the parish of Jedburgh, and a great proportion of the families in all the surrounding parishes, are members of this [Relief] congregation."
Those numbers must have galled the writer of the Account (the Minister of the established Church of Scotland)!

It might be worth posting on the Roxburghshire board (with a cross-reference to this thread) to ask if anyone has any info about Rev James SCOTT of Jedburgh?  Similarly on the Midlothian board (with cross-reference) re Rev James SCOTT of the Relief Church of Dalkeith.

Incidentally, the fact that Rev James was in Jedburgh, Roxburghshire is interesting.  Perhaps that's the source of a (slightly garbled?) reference to a Scottish Borders background.

Regards,

JAP

[MonicaL]

We're moving on a pace here  Fingers crossed it's now the right trail.....

The family look to have still been in Glasgow area (Kelvin) in 1888 with the death of eldest daughter Alison Isabella Scott in 1888. Father Thomas reported death. Alison looks to have been ill for many years (paraplegic if I am reading it right).

So, we now have a further window of 1888-92 for a potential move for the family members.

Monica

[MonicaL]

I feel we are peeling a banana skin here  I found Thomas b. 1825 death entry. He died in 1890 in Kelvin, son Thomas reported death. Parents are confirmed.

Monica

[MonicaL]

  How v. sad......we're following the wrong Thomas....

Thomas b. 1865, son of Thomas and Agnes Norval, married in 1890 to a Sarah Miller. Census entries for 1891 and 1901:

Thomas Scott 25, Warehouseman (Linen), b. Glasgow
Sarah Scott 22, b. Glasgow
Isabella Scott 16, servant, b. Hamilton

Address: 6 Eastburn Pl, Shawlands, Renfrewshire

And in 1901, with no room for doubt:

Thomas Scott 35, Manfarturer's Agent, b. Glasgow
Sarah C Scott    32, wife, b. Glasgow
Mary Scott 9, b. Glasgow
Sarah M Scott 5, b. Glasgow
Jane H Scott 45, sister, Visitor From London, b. Glasgow
Anna G Scott 43, sister, Visitor From London, b. Glasgow
Isabel Scott 41, sister, Visitor From London, b. Glasgow
Maggie Ogilvy 23, servant

Address:8 Seyton Avenue, Cathcart, Renfrewshire



So where now.........

[melonsmum]

Monica & Jap...............

I don't know!  I was so hopeful when I started reading the posts from you both today......  You have both been so kind and helpful.  Another dead end.  Maybe someone else will  benefit from all the hard work you both did.

I just don't know how to find out more about my Thomas.  I honestly thought that him having been born in Scotland would make my research a lot easier as you know how difficult it can be tracing Irish ancestors.

I'm going to visit my 2nd cousin who owns the oil painting.  I would like to see the back as there may be something there.

This 2nd cousin who owns the painting, doesn't know very much about Thomas Beattie Scott as he, himself only met him a few times because he was brought up in Edinburgh and admits that he never took much notice about the family history.

Oh how I wish that I'd asked my Dad about him before he died.

I will keep you both informed of what I discover (if anything) about the painting or Thomas himself.

Thanks so much to you both,

Melonsmum

[MonicaL]

Melonsmum

Determination and patience is everything in genealogy research of which you have buckets ....all that is needed now is a little bit of luck to begin making all the connections which hopefully you will find 

Just a question on your 2nd cousin    Does he connect directly to Thomas Beattie Scott side or is he connected to a line that married into the family?

Regards.

Monica