John Murray/Elizabeth Patterson 1851?

[thehammies13]

I'm guilty, Hume 24!  I don't remember looking at the original- just knew a long time ago it was the right family -  but when Monica found the family living with their grandmother Hastie in Burntisland, i just remembered the 'uncertain of surname', since this Bettsy Hasie had to be John Murray's mother.  I'll also check the 1851 to get her surname, as near as possible.  All this could open up a new generation' or two.
I thought i'd hit  a brick wall, so i'm now 'raring to go'.  I'll get into Register House soon.
thanks, Rae

[MonicaL]

Rae

I did check SP for grandmother Betsy Hastie (the index search) in 1851 and she is down as Hastie. Not sure if the name can also be found under other variants.

A new RootsChatter (from today  ) has just posted a look up offer on the Fife board www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,309872.0.html for pre 1855 deaths from the OPRs. You might want to post there to see if anything shows for Elizabeth (betsy etc.) Hastie. I searched on SP for her death 1855 but couldn't see anything obvious.

Monica

PS: As Hume suggested, the 'uncertain name' certainly comes from FreeCen where the transcriber looks to have had trouble reading the entry, probably down to faintness of the image or something similar. I had a look on the other transcribed index, and their version of Murray was a bit of a mish-mash!

[hume]

For John and Elizabeth's deaths, provided they were in Haddingtonshire, you could possibly try contacting the Local History Centre in Haddington. They are likely to have burial information for Haddington graveyards and possibly even newspaper records for the time. I have been in contact with them for a number of ancestors and they've always been very helpful.

Contact information is here: http://www.eastlothian.gov.uk/content/0,1094,1485,00.html

hume24

[thehammies13]

My thanks to monica and Hume 24.  Just thought I'd let you know how I've progressed.
I found David and James Murray back at Court Street, Haddington in 1861.  they were boarders with a logan family.   David married their daughter, Alison, in 1863.  Alison died in 1868  and David married Catherine skinner in 1870 in edinburgh.
James Murray m elizabeth McAlpine at Haddington  in 1868.  By 1881  they were in Edinburgh too.
I've still found absolutely no trace of their brother Walter, and I'm still working through the marriage records for sister Catherine who was unmarried in Edinburgh in 1861.
I've taken hume 24's advice and contacted ELothian re deaths of john murray & Eliz paterson, and possibly the death of Walter Murray.

This   is   to let you know I really appreciate your help. Sorry about lack of capitals and odd spacing, but this has gone into overtye and any corrections I've tried to makeare deleting text!!!!

[thehammies13]

Almost a year later..............

Walter Murray died in Haddington 30/9/1849, age 6 ( really 9?)  of cholrea, son of John Murray, Wright, pauper.  There  was no entry for John or Elizabeth, so no way of knowing for certain that both were still alive in 1849 when Walter died. 
By 1851, the children were living with grandparents  in Musselburgh and Fife, so presume John and Elizabeth were both  dead by then.
Elizabeth and her brothers were living with their grandmother , Elizabeth Hastie, in Burntisland in 1851.  She was a fisherman's widow.  I've not been able to find her death from 1855.
I don't know if she was Elizabeth murray and John was illegitimate.  I don't know if she was Mrs Hastie in 1851, or had reverted to her maiden name, or her last married name.
You rootschatters seem to find the answers so much more quickly than i do!!!

I've just come back to this as I'm compiling a 'tree' for a nephew  who is getting married in a few weeks (sudden thought to do it)  also for a niece getting married next month.  It would be great to be able to add another branch.  I thought of posting this on the Fife board, but decided  to keep the thread going.   Correct me if I've got that wrong, please.   I really would appreciate help with this - just wish I had been able to get furthr myself.

[MonicaL]

Hi 

Not sure if we can extract any more info than we have to date on line  Likely given you have found Walter's death from Cholera in 1849 that this may also explain the deaths of parents John and Elizabeth perhaps. You have the youngest James, aged 4, at his grandmother's in 1851 so maybe a window of death for parents from 1847 - 51.

The issue of surname for Elizabeth Hastie, likely John's mother is also hard to be definite. At a guess, I would say this was her maiden name. Scottish women, particularly in this period, often showed under their maiden name whilst married, less so in later years. She shows as widow of fisherman in 1851, so I would imagine that Hastie was her maiden name...but no proof.

The only guess I can make regarding John's father may be on Scottish naming pattern. The children we have for John and Elizabeth are:

Catherine - after Elizabeth's mother
Walter - after John's father ?
Elizabeth - after John's mother
David - after Elizabeth's father
James - ?

The one thing you might want to check for clues is what names (and middle surnames) the children above used for their children...sometimes throws up clues....

For example, from the details you gave for daughter Elizabeth following her marriage to James Grieve, these look like some of their children:

1. JAMES GREIVE  Birth: 28 DEC 1858 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
2. THOMAS GRIEVE  Birth: 21 DEC 1860 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
3. MARGARET BROSNON GRIEVE Birth: 29 NOV 1862 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
4. ROBERT FRASER GRIEVE Birth: 02 DEC 1864 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
5. ELIZABETH GRIEVE Birth: 06 FEB 1867 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh
6. JOHN TURNER GRIEVE  Birth: 14 MAY 1870 Peebles, Peebles
7. DAVID GRIEVE Birth: 24 DEC 1872 Edinburgh

...I know, can't see any clues there 

James Murray and Elizaberth McAlpine:

1. JOHN MURRAY Birth: 17 MAR 1869 Haddington, East Lothian
2. AGNES ARNOT MURRAY Birth: 26 MAY 1871 Haddington, East Lothian
3. ELIZABETH MURRAY  Birth: 13 NOV 1873 Edinburgh

David Murray and Catherine Skinner (can't see any on IGI for Alison Logan)

1. JOHN MURRAY  Birth: 23 NOV 1871 Edinburgh, Midlothian
2. BARBARA PURDIE MURRAYBirth: 26 JUL 1873 Edinburgh, Midlothian

IGI at www.familysearch.org stops around 1874 so can't see beyond that.

Not sure who Catherine married.

Monica 

[hume]

I've also had another look at this one and was very keen to try and break down some brick walls for you, but it is a tricky one. Obviously John and Elizabeth did die around the same time as Walter. That may be quite a hasty assumption but it explains why the other children are staying with their separate grandmothers in 1851. However, you may want to double check the 1851 census for the poorhouses, just in case the parents had been admitted there.

Another thought is poor relief applications, which I'm sure the children would be entitled to. At a guess, the parishes of Garvald, Haddington and Burntisland (if Betsy Hastie were claiming on their behalf). The East Lothian fhs should have the records for the former two... not sure where you will find the latter. Going to look in my MI book for some of East Lothian ... will reply back if I find anything.

hume

[hume]

Replying back. Nothing in the MIs. I thought there may be something for grandfather David Patterson but I have a feeling he died in Musselburgh, where Catherine is staying in 1851.

Will keep searching for any hints.

hume

[thehammies13]

Thanks, monica and hume.
I'm so glad I wasn't missing something obvious!
hume, your suggestion for poor relief records is great - I've had a lot of success with that in Angus.  Yes, I think David Patterson must have died in Musselburgh - can't see an old lady moving there by herself, somehow.  I'm wondering if i'll find any record of John & Elizabeth's deaths there. 
I see the opr deaths for Burntisland end in 1848 - too early for John Murray if he had gone back to fife, but i'll read through them to see if I can get any help with Elizabeth Hastie's husband.  Just depends how detailed they are - Kilrenny oprs throw up  a lot of valuable information.  Fingers crossed.
Thank you very much for your help,
Rae