Author Topic: Re: Help required re RN Service Record interpretation - discussion re copyright  (Read 3134 times)

Offline Necromancer

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Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline mudge

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Re: Help required re RN Service Record interpretation
« Reply #1 on: Friday 06 June 08 17:34 BST (UK) »
Hi Newfster
As it was purchased from the National Archives, I assume it is "crown copyright"
I didn't give it a thought when I posted it.  Good job the moderators are on their toes!
Mudge

Offline Necromancer

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Re: Help required re RN Service Record interpretation
« Reply #2 on: Friday 06 June 08 17:35 BST (UK) »
Doesnt look like a problem if its used for Private Study or research on a non-commercial basis ...


http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/legal/copyright.htm


not that it matters as you have snipped whats needed , I was just curious.
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline mudge

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Re: Help required re RN Service Record interpretation
« Reply #3 on: Friday 06 June 08 17:46 BST (UK) »
Just looked at your copyright link Newfster. Thanks for that ;) I think it would be OK, as you suggested,
but only as long as I acknowledged that it is "Crown Copyright"Note to the moderator: Would it be OK to repost the whole document, if I acknowledge Crown Copyright ???
Mudge


Offline scrimnet

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Re: Help required re RN Service Record interpretation
« Reply #4 on: Friday 06 June 08 22:15 BST (UK) »
Doesnt look like a problem if its used for Private Study or research on a non-commercial basis ...


http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/legal/copyright.htm


not that it matters as you have snipped whats needed , I was just curious.

Ummm....I think that there is a problem when bits and bobs of military documents are posted...They are out of context and pants to make sense of... :P

I can never make sense of  attestation sheet, medical probs etc unless the whole thing is there!!  :o :-\

And as for "transcriptions" this is all in the eye of the beholder...Look at the problems we have with Anpestry!  ;)

Millymcb put a rather learned discourse up last year on the rigors of copyright law...She should know, for I know she deals with it EVERY day at her place of work and her post is NOT just an opinion! She is VERY learned on this... 8)

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,230174.0.html
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Offline Copyright-Editor

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Re: Help required re RN Service Record interpretation
« Reply #5 on: Friday 06 June 08 23:04 BST (UK) »
Mudge received a personal message to clarify RootsChat's position about the posting of images and copyright.

Regardless of the usefulness of only small portions being posted, it is RootsChat policy not to allow full images to be posted.  This policy was formulated after consultation with the Copyright desk at the National Archives and discussion between the site owners, Trystan and Sarah and the moderating team.

Since RootsChat is not just a personal website, but a message forum which has grown over the last four years and now contains over a quarter of a million topics, with over one and a half million individual messages, you can see there is the potential for a lot individual images to be posted.  At that point those images are no longer just for personal use - they are freely available for the whole world-wide web to see.  For this reason, it was agreed that the policy would be that only small portions of complete images such as the service records or medal cards could be posted to assist with deciphering handwriting etc.

This is RootsChat's policy on what may be posted here on RootsChat.  There are no plans to change this.  Other sites may have a different policy.

RootsChat Copyright team

Offline mudge

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Re: Help required re RN Service Record interpretation - discussion re copyright
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 07 June 08 00:24 BST (UK) »
Hi
I agree with scrimnet that a small part of a document can be read / considered out of context, and therefore ignores the Time Line and full context of the document, thus making it difficult to analyse effectively. (Just like giving detectives 10% of the background information in an investigation!)  However I do appreciate RootsChat's reasoning behind it, although I do not necessarily agree with it, particularly if the National Archives do not object, as long as acknowledgment is given
Mudge

Offline scrimnet

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Re: Help required re RN Service Record interpretation - discussion re copyright
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 07 June 08 02:52 BST (UK) »
A couple of observational points if I may?

Surely there is a difference betwixt "image" ie picture, etching etc and "document"??

Was a copyright lawyer consulted, or are these just the views of (no offence intended here) enthusiastic amateurs?

Copyright law is a bit of a minefield and difficult to understand fully, and thus it is easy for an "ideation" to become "custom and practice" however right or wrong that ideation may be in the eyes of the law...

It is not my intention here to undermine the site owners or mods etc, I am just trying to get to grips with the thought processes that have led to this discussion, so that clarity and openness reigneth supreme, thus myself and others do not upset any applecarts (or mods!).

This also probably explains why I have had over a 1000 pms and a huge number of emails....admittedly not all have documents or images contained therein, but most do! If people cannot read documents, or know which bit to post etc they normally send them to me direct...

We are all here to assist each other, and most people work very hard to that end. This discussion is but an extension of the hard work to assist us all to that end.

My first contact with RC was when I was asked to come and help with a couple of military history questions...I became hooked...

I think I have asked but x2 or x3 questions for myself!!

One final note....What about all the photos that people post on here??

Where do they stand in your view??

Does copyright exist with the "owner" of the print, the negative or the photographer?...And what about those pictures that have been printed as "postcards"??

Also, what about once those excellent Restoration Board chaps and chapesses, once they have restored a piccie...??

Does the "new image" "copyright" reside in the restorer or the "owner" of the pic that was posted for restoration or any of the myriad of people mentioned above - including the originator on the board??
One more charge and then be dumb,
            When the forts of Folly fall,
        May the victors when they come
            Find my body near the wall.

Offline Necromancer

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Re: Help required re RN Service Record interpretation - discussion re copyright
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 07 June 08 07:48 BST (UK) »
Quote
you can see there is the potential for a lot individual images to be posted.  At that point those images are no longer just for personal use - they are freely available for the whole world-wide web to see.


Potential vs actual ...... and even with an individual long-dead sailors service record on view to the whole WWW, is it likely or feasible that a commercial exploitation will be made - which is the thrust of the Nat Archives objective in enforcing their copyright ?

It saddens me that information about our ancestors - given freely by them - is so controlled....  :(
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk