Author Topic: Why at Savona, Italy ??  (Read 5019 times)

Offline grandarog

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,530
  • The Original Ancestor
    • View Profile
Why at Savona, Italy ??
« on: Sunday 07 September 08 20:08 BST (UK) »
Hello All,
Dont you just love a Mystery
       My Uncle was Buried in Ramlah Cemetery Israel (formerly  Palestine) age 22 on 4th July 1918 . I have everything well documented with photos of grave and cemetery etc.so no help required with that.
   I have found a photo shown here which poses a mystery question. What was a Sergeant in the Royal Army Service Corps doing in Savona with the 41st Fanteria a year earlier on the 9th May 1917.? My Uncle is the Sgt in the middle between the 2 Italian Officers holding his hat on his Knees.
   As far as I can recall from my mums recolections he went out to Egypt and Palestine direct from training in UK. I am at a loss as to what he would have been doing with Italian Infantry ,did we train them or what?

The Caption on the photo reads as follows.

    MEMORIE  SOTTUFFICIALI   41"-  FANTERIA -   SAVONA - 9-5-17             (translates as "Petty Memory ")        (  Guess  "-  =  st..   )      Fanteria is Infantry  so =   41st Infantry

 There appear to be a few other British NCO.s in the photo.  The little lad at front with the Glengary and Spats has got to be British surely.
           
                         I must be rude and say the Italians look a motley bunch.

                                                                What can you  come up with for answers? I am stumped at the moment.
                                                                                                                                           Best Regards to you all,
                                                                                                                                                                         Rog
WAGHORN/E
KENWARD
HARRIS
DIXON
MARSHALL
MERCER
CARE
FAGG
RUSSELL
WOODRUFF      

 All these  Families were Born and Bred in Kent

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline forester

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,313
    • View Profile
Re: Why at Savona, Italy ??
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 07 September 08 20:42 BST (UK) »
Hello Rog,

Is it possible he was a survivor of the "Transylvania", that sank 4th May 1917 en route to Salonika.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_Results.aspx?CemeteryName=savona&send.x=47&send.y=15

Phil
Sussex: Satcher (Hamsey) and Gatton (East Grinstead)
Leicestershire: Pratt
South Wales: Evans (Neath)
Poland: Gonet, Deren

Forest Row: War Memorial and Camp WW1
Lewisham War Memorials & WW1 Graves

Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline forester

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,313
    • View Profile
Re: Why at Savona, Italy ??
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 07 September 08 21:10 BST (UK) »
Rog,

I don't know what Company your uncle was in, but 905, 906 & 907 Motor Transport Company ASC were on board.

Phil
Sussex: Satcher (Hamsey) and Gatton (East Grinstead)
Leicestershire: Pratt
South Wales: Evans (Neath)
Poland: Gonet, Deren

Forest Row: War Memorial and Camp WW1
Lewisham War Memorials & WW1 Graves

Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline kyt

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 895
  • www.cfww2.com Commonwealth Forces of WW2
    • View Profile
Re: Why at Savona, Italy ??
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 07 September 08 22:47 BST (UK) »
Italy was an allied power in WW1 and in 1915 Britain and France had promised to provide troops and material if Italy called for it.

Though this article discusses the support given after your date, there is every probability that some was given before:

http://www.worldwar1.com/itafront/alliesitaly.htm

K

Offline Suttonrog

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,738
    • View Profile
Re: Why at Savona, Italy ??
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 07 September 08 23:08 BST (UK) »
I think forester is rights.

The liner Transylvania, Lt S Brennel RNR , completed just before the outbreak of the First World War, was taken over for service as a transport on completion. She was designed to accommodate 1,379 passengers but the Admiralty fixed her capacity at 200 officers and 2,860 men, beside the crew. She was carrying nearly this number when she left Marseilles for Alexandria on March 3rd 1917, with an escort of two Japanese destroyers, the Matsu and the Sakaki. At 10 am on the 4th the Transylvania was struck in the port engine room by a torpedoe from a submarine.

At the time the ship was on a zig-zag course at a speed of 14 knots, being two and a half miles South of Cape Vado, Gulf of Genoa. She at once headed for the land two miles distant, while the Matsu came alongside to take off the troops, the Sakaki meanwhile steaming around to keep the submarine submerged. Twenty minutes later a torpedoe was seen coming straight for the destroyer alongside, which saved herself by going astern at full speed. The torpedoe then struck the Transylvania and she sank very quickly, less than an hour having elapsed since she was first hit.

Lt Brennell, one other officer and ten men of the crew, 29 military officers and 373 other ranks were killed."

Out of interest, the original CWGC registers give details of where men were buried relative to where their bodies were washed up. A number were buried in Savona town cemetery and, from memory, a memorial was erected to those who were drowned or killed in another Italian cemetery.

 if your uncle was on his way to Alexandria, it looks as though he had an unexpected stop.

Rog

Offline liverpool annie

  • Deceased † Rest In Peace
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 13,434
  • Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Why at Savona, Italy ??
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 07 September 08 23:13 BST (UK) »
Hello Rog,

Is it possible he was a survivor of the "Transylvania", that sank 4th May 1917 en route to Salonika.

http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_Results.aspx?CemeteryName=savona&send.x=47&send.y=15

Phil

Snap Rog !  :)

On 3rd May 1917, the Transylvania, a troopship, sailed from Marseille to Alexandria with a full complement, escorted by the Japanese destroyers Matsu and Sakaki. On 4th May The Transylvania was torpedoed, close to Cape Vado in the Gulf of Genova, by German Submarine U-63. The Matsu came alongside the Transylvania and began to offload the troops whilst the Sakaki circled to force the submarine to remain submerged. After a second torpedo hit, the Transylvania sank immediately. In total 414 men lost their lives.

The bodies recovered at Savano (just north of Cape Vado), were buried two days later, from the hospital of San Paulo, in a special plot in the town cemetery. Others are buried elsewhere in Italy, France, Monaco and Spain. Savona Town Cemetery contains 85 Commonwealth burials from the First World War, all but two of them casualties from the Transylvania. Within the cemetery is the Savona Memorial which commemorates a further 275 casualties who died when the Transylvania sank, but whose graves are unknown.

Annie
Cooper : Muels : Howarth : Every : Price : King

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407030702/http://www.freewebs.com/liverpoolannie

http://web.archive.org/web/20130407191115/http://manchestersoldiers.webs.com

http://web.archive.org/web/20130807102055/http://www.powv.webs.com/
Be who you are and say what you feel -  because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind ! Dr. Seuss

Erect no gravestone .... let the Rose every year bloom for his sake ! Rilke Sonnets to Orpheus, I

Offline grandarog

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,530
  • The Original Ancestor
    • View Profile
Re: Why at Savona, Italy ??
« Reply #6 on: Monday 08 September 08 20:57 BST (UK) »
Hello ,
            Thankyou all,I just knew you would come up with the answers. No wonder the men look so sombre in the photo.Just lost all those comrades. Probably explains the civilian and the small lad as survivors .I understand it was  usual for senior crew members to keep their families on board with them. (I dont know about during War time.)
           Having since done some googling there are some very good articles about the incident also a complete nominal role of known casualties buried at Savona on Find a Grave site.The Cwgc also has details of the cemetery and a nice Photo.
           There was also a memorial erected in the nearby town of Bergeggi in 1925.
I cribbed this from a Scuba Divingsite changed slightly for cc.

During 1925, a cross was raised on Bergeggi Promuntory in memory of the victims and of the rescuers of the Torpedoed Troopship Transylvania
The hull of the Transylvania lies at very high depth, more then -300m, some 3 miles off Spotorno coast, and was discovered in 1999 by researchers of the Centro Studi Attività Marinare in Vado Ligure.
The wreck is still unexplored.
Uncle John (known as Jack) was most certainly on his way to Alexandria with the rest of his Coy 906 RASC.
Thanks again , If I had thought to google Savona I neednt have troubled you all.so again a big thankyou.
                                                                Rog
WAGHORN/E
KENWARD
HARRIS
DIXON
MARSHALL
MERCER
CARE
FAGG
RUSSELL
WOODRUFF      

 All these  Families were Born and Bred in Kent

Offline grandarog

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,530
  • The Original Ancestor
    • View Profile
Re: Why at Savona, Italy ??
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 10 September 08 05:58 BST (UK) »
Hello All,
            Once again Thanks for your marvelous responses. Thought these pictures of Uncle Jack in Egypt a few weeks before his death and his grave marker on his orriginal grave before he was reinterred at Ramley Cemetry in Palestine (now Ramla in Israel)when it was built after the War.
                                                               Bye Rog
                                                                             
WAGHORN/E
KENWARD
HARRIS
DIXON
MARSHALL
MERCER
CARE
FAGG
RUSSELL
WOODRUFF      

 All these  Families were Born and Bred in Kent

Offline Davers

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 3
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Why at Savona, Italy ??
« Reply #8 on: Monday 14 September 15 20:01 BST (UK) »
My Grandfather was one of the survivors from the "Transylvania" torpedo attack, My father has a photo of the funeral cortege going up Savona main street.
I have an old photo of him with 906th company in Damascus sometime after the sinking, I not sure if they carried on there after the sinking or went back to England and then returned to Damascus